Understanding Women’s need for safety – Transcript

Other Ways To Consume this podcast:

Amber: It’s like, you can still be directional and analytical and figure things out. But if you can add your ability to stay and feel your emotions, you’re nailing it. It’s like a thousand percent more attractive and your woman or your, your, your counterpart in their feminine will just relax and melt. And she wouldn’t even know why.


[00:00:21] But that’s what will happen.


[00:00:30] Mike: You’re listening to the Everyday Legends Podcast. The show that is dedicated to helping everyday men build legendary relationships; with yourself, your partner and your world. I’m your host, Mike Campbell. And the aim of this podcast is simple; to help you navigate life with more clarity, more confidence and purpose-driven action. With plenty of stories, a load of lessons, and some loving, straight talk. So let’s get started.


[00:01:02] Hello and welcome to another episode of the Everyday Legends podcast. Oh, I think I say this every time I have a guest on, but it’s because it’s true. Very excited about today’s guest. A good friend of mine and the first woman on our show: miss Amber Hawken. Amber is a wildly interesting, funny, incredibly smart woman.


[00:01:27] And I first met her via one of our previous guests, Dr. Jeremy Goldberg, when I was running an event here on the Gold Coast, Beyond The Beers and Jer did an introduction to Amber who checked out what I was doing and was like, Oh yeah, definitely, you need to come over. Let’s do a Facebook Live to my audience.


[00:01:44] So the first time I met her was driving to her house, meeting her, and then 15 minutes later, we were doing a Facebook Live together where she interviewed me and we had a conversation and that started an interest in each other and a mutual respect and a friendship. And I’ve been very fortunate to be her friend for some time.


[00:02:01] And that has been both in just two humans connecting on a level that we get each other, but also because of where we’re at and the work that we do. And that’s one of the major reasons why I wanted to bring Amber onto the show because of the insight, the, the skills, the expertise she has in, like, in short speaking to, I suppose what I do, helping people get their shit together.


[00:02:25] And I’ll read it a little bit more perhaps of her formal side of things shortly, but also I wanted to bring her on because as a woman, I believe she has a beautiful and unique perspective for men, as women of course do. And I will talk to many more women on the show. I wanted to speak to Amber to get a bit of a woman’s perspective for men, but more specifically, and as you hear in this podcast, I wanted to speak to the idea of, the conversation of, safety.


[00:02:53] You know, I’ve done plenty of posts about this in the past, that speak somewhere along the lines, too: Men – she needs to feel safe with you. And you know, there’s different posts that are in and around that speaking to different things, they usually get a monumental response from women and from guys sometimes like, yes and a little bit of: ‘Okay, please tell me more, make sense of this’.


[00:03:20] And also ‘it should go both ways’. And so what I wanted to do on this podcast with Amber was, well, let’s explore that. Let’s explore the idea of safety, uh, what that is to women, to the feminine and in with it, we actually go into looking at the masculine and feminine, those modes. And us as individuals, as well as how that plays out in our relationships, not just, uh, romantic relationships, but in general, when we’re conversing with other people, regardless of the agenda, how do we understand these aspects and modes and energies in us so we can mean have greater relationships and, let’s face it, greater lives. So that’s the kind of stuff that we’re going to get into. Amber has got some beautiful, personal stories that shares to kind of help know with some of her points as well. Ah, she has so much to offer and, you know, there’s things from them then to get and take away from this. And of course, for any woman listening as well. And for guys, you might want to pass on some of the stuff to some of your female partners. Um, and also, you know, if you’re a gay dude, then, there’s a lot here speaking to the feminine in anyone. So it doesn’t really matter who you are. I think you can get a lot from this and from Amber.


[00:04:25] Now, we’ll make sure where you find this podcast in the notes is all the stuff that we refer to and access to Amber.


[00:04:32] But what I want to do now is give you a little brief, um, that I’ve actually pulled from her website because I love it. And it goes:


[00:04:39] “In a society that capitalises on our deepest fears, doubts, and insecurities people no longer have the courage to show themselves, be themselves, live for themselves, think for themselves. Alas, we get so lost in this trap of gratification and escape that we live empty lives, trying to fulfil a version of someone else’s perfect. It’s a fucking tragedy. Amber’s work is dedicated to passing on practical principles for spiritual evolution and a magnificent life. And for that four ingredients are required; vulnerability, mindfulness, a great sense of humour, and purpose.”


[00:05:21] And those are all things that I connect to Amber. And as I essentially said at the top of this introduction, one of the reasons why I wanted to have her on was to bring all of those. So yeah, that’s what we get into in this episode.


[00:05:36] As always, if you take something from this, please share it with me, let us know, share it with someone else, take the episode and share it with someone that you think might get a lot from this. Reach out, let me know that you’re listening. And of course, you know, I’m going to ask this, make sure that you follow subscribe, click, download, and leave us a rating and a review. It gives us so much support in getting this in front of other eyes and ears that need it, that can benefit from it.


[00:06:03] And with that said, let’s get into the show.


[00:06:06] Alright, Amber Hawken, welcome to the Everyday Legends Podcast. The first one in person in my house.


[00:06:12] Amber: Thanks, so good to be here, Mike. Thanks so much for having me.


[00:06:17] Mike: Now, please some of my audience may know of you many may not. So where I’d love to start is who is Amber Hawken?


[00:06:26] Amber: Well, there’s so many different ways I could go about that, but perhaps it’s, it’s probably beneficial to maybe know a bit of professional background, as well as personal.


[00:06:33] Mike: Wherever you want to go.


[00:06:34] Amber: Okay. Um, let’s just go with context and experience. Um, context first. Context of leading into where I ended up was someone who- I grew up in a household that was it, it was domestic violence, but at that time I really, I didn’t realise that it was that. It just felt like a really very busy, um, loud, crazy place to be.


[00:06:59] And so I scooted off and about 14 years old and I really enjoyed that. I was like ‘Independence’! So I moved down a home at 14 and I was really interested in-


[00:07:08] Mike: You really enjoyed it?


[00:07:09] Amber: I know, I know I loved it. But-


[00:07:12] Mike: At the time versus like retrospectively?


[00:07:15] Amber: Yeah, no. At the time I did.


[00:07:17] Mike: So what was the enjoyment?


[00:07:18] Amber: Yeah, freedom from having to hear the voice of my step-mother each morning yell and complain and scream. She was very angry, very, it was a very emotionally volatile. And so it was so peaceful, moving away from that. So, and that was beautiful.


[00:07:35] Mike: Challenging, I’m assuming?


[00:07:37] Amber: Um, yeah. And looking back, I can see so many reasons for, and this gets into maybe a little bit more context of why I created so many different habits and behaviours and protective mechanisms around so many different parts of myself and was interested in human behaviour, interested in psychology, interested in pain and trauma and addiction because my mum was an addict and then my stepmum and my dad used to smoke a lot of pot together, used to drink, you know, uh, Woodstocks every night, like, you know, a six pack or Woodstocks each night.


[00:08:10] And yeah. We didn’t have a lot of cash and that was just life. So at 14, I was like, cool, I’m going to get out of home. I’m going to study real hard. I’m going to make sure I’ve got a ton of money and no one can ever tell me what to do. And I, um, was very interested in, in, uh, different forms of therapy. And at this stage I was a bit of a science geek at school.


[00:08:33] Mike: So you were interested in this then?


[00:08:36] Amber: Yeah. Loved science. It was my, my best subject was biology.


[00:08:40] Mike: And different forms of therapy?


[00:08:41] Amber: Yeah. Was super interested in human beings. I used to go to the counselor at school when I was 12 years old, I went to a Catholic school and you can just go to the counselor just to, um, self-reflect just to, I didn’t know it was self-reflection then I had no idea.


[00:08:54] Mike: That wasn’t happening at my catholic school. Please go on.


[00:08:57] Amber: Well, what happened was my nanny died, who was really close to kind of being like a mother figure for me. So they sent me there, scooted me off, and I was like, well, that’s someone to talk to. All right.


[00:09:06] Mike: Right, being heard.


[00:09:08] Amber: Yeah. Yeah. It was being seen. Yeah being seen. I, I didn’t have a problem with being heard. I was probably overly loud.


[00:09:18] Mike: Okay.


[00:09:19] Amber: Um, in, in soul as much as learned behaviour. Right. Um,


[00:09:27] Mike: Okay. So when, when you say learned behaviour, what do you mean there? Learning to be, make noise to be noticed, kind of thing?


[00:09:34] Amber: Yeah, if I look back and I was really thinking about this the other day, if I look back on something that has changed about myself, that’s really big that I probably thought was just naturally who I am, was this, uh, I don’t want to use terms like ‘needing to be seen’ because I didn’t relate to that at all then, but it was a performance, like how could I perform right now to be able to impress or not let that person down? Or not disappoint? You know, it was really about disappointing.


[00:10:07] It wasn’t so much that I needed to be like tapped on the shoulder. Like you’re the best. It was like, reassured; you did good. It was, it’s a very subtle difference, but it was a really warming in my heart that I needed. And so I remember this counsellor asking me different questions and saying to me, um, you know, you’re, you’ve just lost your Nan, this is what it’s like at home. And she explained to me like the cup that we have in my cup was full and was I doing okay? And I’m like, Yeah, I’m good. But tell me more.


[00:10:38] Mike: You went to a different school to me. Please tell me more?


[00:10:45] Amber: I’ve never told anyone that before. I’ve never thought about that, but yeah, it’s that really impacted me. And I was interested in that it’s the first time ever, she said to me, Oh, Amber, you’re very aware of yourself for your age, and it was the first time I’d ever heard something like that. I’m like, what do you mean? Doesn’t everyone think this way? Because I talk about my stepmum empathetically. I’d be like, Oh, you know, but she’s angry. And that’s why she’s abusive. And my mum, I remember this lady just being like, And are you okay with that? Well, I mean, yeah, it’s annoying, but, and so it was quite hard already by 12.


[00:11:15] Um, and at the same time, I really always didn’t have the perspective of like, what’s not my, I was very accepting of life kind of thing.


[00:11:24] Mike: By the sound of it.


[00:11:26] Amber: Um, And then, so I wanted to, with the money thing, I didn’t ever want to be poor because we didn’t have a lot. So I wanted to study something that was really great money that I’d never have to want for anything. I wanted the cool snacks that all my friends had. We always had to have the fucking sandwiches in the glad wrap and the fruit and, which I’m super grateful for now because, you know-


[00:11:47] Mike: Yeah, but it’s one of those things quite often. Right. You see what other kids are getting? It looks like it’s special. And so you want some of that.


[00:11:52] Amber: Totally. You know, the bomb old car that we’d get dropped off at school that I was embarrassed. I’d be like, no, no, no, let me walk to school. Or like, let me walk to sport. I didn’t need to be picked up. I’m just going to walk everywhere because all my friends parents either wealthy business owners or miners. We Lived in a mining town. So everyone money and we had barely any.


[00:12:11] And so I really wanted cash. So I looked, what am I good at? Like, what am I smart at? Um, you know, I, what do I want to be part of my job? And what’s going to get good money. And I narrowed it down to radiation therapy. So treating cancer.


[00:12:28] Mike: How old are you when you were deciding this?


[00:12:30] Amber: 14.


[00:12:32] Mike: Man, we did have very different upbringings in some parts.


[00:12:34] Amber: I went to the library and went to the guidance counsellor, and I was like, I want to know what subjects I need to do good in. Not 14. Sorry. I was 15. I was 15.


[00:12:44] Mike: We’ll give you that.


[00:12:45] Amber: And, um, I was, there was like 14 turning 15. And so that’s how I chose my year 10 subjects. So I did that because I changed schools. And so they’re like, what subjects you want to choose? And so I thought, well, what do I need? So then I made this, so blah, blah, blah looked ahead, da da da.


[00:12:59] And that’s what I’m going to study, so I chose all my elective subjects and then studied harder and year 12 and chose subjects based on that as well. Mm. Great. Good out of school. Graduated as a radiation therapist. Studied for years. Um, graduated worked only for about 18 months as a radiation therapist and felt the environment was cold and stagnant.


[00:13:21] And that we are very good at treating sickness, but not in creating health. And for me, it just didn’t make any sense. I’m very practical person. I’m like, cool. This is really great that we have all this science in this research. But why aren’t we helping them with their nutrition? Like, what’s up with that.


[00:13:38] I used to play soccer for Queensland. So health and fitness was just, it was my life. I was a fit person and I also studied to be a personal trainer to get through uni. So when I was studying uni, I was working in a gym full-time as well. And I just used to see that all the recommendations around movement were like staying in bed: rest.


[00:13:57] And, um, no one ever spoke to them about nutrition.


[00:14:01] Mike: In terms of the people who are coming in for-


[00:14:03] Amber: Cancer treatment. Yeah, exactly. And I was thinking that’s odd. I didn’t learn anything about that at university. And you know, knowing that one of the side effects of therapy treatment is cancer. And just thinking, this seems counterintuitive, like something’s up here.


[00:14:19] I wasn’t there to like, try and change the system or go against, you know, anything. But I just felt this isn’t for me, there’s gotta be something where I can help people before they get to this place. And I was really interested in mind-body connection, like what’s going on with our emotions. What’s going on up here? What’s like influencing this. How can we change that?


[00:14:38] And, and so then I left radiation therapy on lied myself, and I said, I’m just going to take some time off. I saved like 70 grand working as a personal trainer in an RT saved up. And then I studied different forms of behavioral therapy. I did not want to go back to university because I thought: I’ve done that already and I don’t like that. I didn’t like or enjoy the route of care that our system had in the West. I thought I don’t want to be a psychologist and get stuck back where there’s so many rigid old school rules where people aren’t including people’s a whole being, you know? And so I was like, what can I do that can really help people in a very deep way that I don’t have to go back to university and I don’t have to be in the system?


[00:15:20] So I started cognitive behavioural therapy, um, regression therapy, inner-child work neuro-linguistic programming, uh, mindfulness, meditation, somatic intelligence. So like, that’s basically a fancy way of saying, seeing how we can feel and sense what’s going on in our body, as far as our emotions.


[00:15:38] And just different healing modalities and just practiced them, created my business off it. Created a second business off it and that’s kind of how I ended up here.


[00:15:47] And also my voice doesn’t always sound like this. I just got like-


[00:15:52] Mike: You may have a drink.


[00:15:52] Amber: haha


[00:15:53] I need some water. I did a sweat lodge on the weekend and I had a very great experience and lost a bit of my voice.


[00:16:01] Mike: Thank you for that story. All right. And some new stuff there. So Amber and I are friends for perhaps a little bit more context and, um, I love that. And one of the reasons I wanted to bring you onto the show and you know, to, to bring in your perspective, not only you as an individual, but also you as a female for my largely male audience is – a word safety.


[00:16:22] And for me, it actually come up, comes up in a couple of things that you just spoke about in terms of, you know, developed a lot of habits and behaviours that are perhaps, uh, kind of, you know, out of self-preservation, predictive mechanisms. Um, it would seem perhaps a need for independence or certainly it was, it was playing out as a young lady.


[00:16:44] Yeah. And when you lived home, but then also what I’m hearing there is like, what do I need to do? That’s going to bring me on the money that kind of speaks to this independence thing. So, um, uh, let’s first of all, explore Amber a little bit more. Where do you think that transitioned for you? From 14 year old, you know, this is exciting because now I don’t have to deal with other people’s chaos and there’s independence, but I want to get some money so I can be safe and independent and free – to, you know, the, the mature adult that you are now?


[00:17:17] Ha, mature!


[00:17:19] I suppose the relationship to safety and, and yeah. And looking after oneself, right. Self, you know, self, as you said, self-protective mechanisms and so on?


[00:17:27] Amber: Yeah. It’s a really great question. And I think it happened over time and the best way, um, to learn about any of these things has been in relationships that have failed, which aren’t really failed. But they’re relationships that were dysfunctional, say, in a way.


[00:17:42] Mike: Yeah, they ended at some point.


[00:17:45] Ended


[00:17:45] Amber: at some point. Yeah. For a great reaso.,


[00:17:48] Mike: Because there’s also relationships that are together that we could, perhaps objectively call a failure of some description.


[00:17:54] Amber: Yep. If I was to say the first point that I realised that my habits and, um, you know, learn behaviours and my hyper independence was maybe not as beneficial, was when I really asked myself what kind of partner I want. And I realised cool, again, the self-reflection was always quite a habit. I’m just a curious kid forever. Right. And I thought, well, what, what do I need to, I don’t want to say who do I need to be in a cliche way, but I really wondered like, right, so if that’s what I would love to create, then where can I – and I used to think about physics like this, how can I become a magnet for that? Like, where can I create that duality? Because you don’t want to get two ends of the magnet bouncing off each other.


[00:18:42] And then I was introduced the concept of masculine and feminine. I learned about that. So I studied that in my own works and you know, did little courses and really learnt how I was in my, let’s say masculine energy a lot. But even also sometimes working from what can be said to be toxic masculine, or out of balance or wounded, whatever you want to call it, and quite really resistant and shut down from that feminine part of me.


[00:19:09] So it was my awareness, because I, I asked about what I wanted and then, so, Oh, what’s really worked forever, won’t work anymore. Right. So, and then I started to explore-


[00:19:21] Mike: And so was this based on, you know, you said, you said you first started to go, who do I want in a partner? So is that where all that kind of stemmed from, and then what was the answer to that that spurned the rest of what happened?


[00:19:32] Amber: Oh, okay. So someone who’s like strong and, and very, very much like, alive in values, very aligned values, but how I wanted to feel meant- made me realise that if I want to feel this way, which I wanted to feel relaxed and loved and adored and peaceful and desired and fun, that I needed, there is something to that that I needed to be really relaxed and let them lead.


[00:19:58] And, you know, um, These different things were very, I’m trying to think back to that version because right now it’s so obvious. But back then, I’m like, I remember,


[00:20:07] Mike: And when is ‘back then’?


[00:20:08] Amber: Oh, Oh, 2012. Okay. Yeah. And you were 23, 23? Yeah. Say 23. Um, After I left the hospital and started to look at human behaviour.


[00:20:23] Mike: So there’s an exploration into like, well, who do I want in a partner? This thing here, which is what I’m perhaps getting is almost a mirror of who you were at that time.


[00:20:35] Amber: Exactly.


[00:20:36] Mike: And so were you recognising that, ah, this might not be serving me so well. As you said, looking at it from a physics standpoint, a very masculine standpoint, a very logical and analytical way. If I am doing this and I want my partner to do this, is it, are we going to be too positive ends of the same magnet?


[00:20:56] Amber: Yeah, precisely.


[00:20:58] Mike: Cool. So, then what happened? So you made some realisations that you needed to be perhaps more in your feminine. So what, what, what did that look like in terms of, you know, you weren’t there yet, but you went okay: actual details, me to be more in my feminine, you spoke about relaxed and fun and so on.


[00:21:14] Amber: Yep. Um, I’m just going all the way back so I can really remember what that felt like at that very firs-.


[00:21:23] Mike: What were you identifying the required shift for you to be?


[00:21:30] Amber: I was still intellectualising this idea of softness and a respect of emotions so I can hear the masculine, but this is how I thought: okay, I’ve got to respect my emotions-


[00:21:48] Mike: But the one you just said before to describe yourself, and it was a few ways, but one of them was: hard, ‘very hard’.


[00:21:53] Amber: Hard, I was hard.


[00:21:54] Mike: Right. And so I suppose the simple polarity is soft.


[00:21:57] Amber: Yeah, so softening, um, enjoying life, more, being able to feel, intuit; intuition. And so there was some really great- I had to give it to myself. I had a really great intuition forever. Like that side of my feminine was always alive. And so that’s what I could anchor down on it and relate to within myself; when am I already being that? How can I amplify it? So instead of trying to like, fix what I thought was broken, I’m like, what can I amplify what I’m doing well?


[00:22:24] And so I started off, what have I got that’s even a little bit like where I want to, um, have more of? And so I never, I tried to never, even though I broke it down in very masculine way into detail, I tried to not-


[00:22:38] Mike: Yeah but that was your process at the time, right? So, I mean, it would be somewhat ridiculous to look back at it and go, ah, that was the wrong way. It was the way that worked for you.


[00:22:45] Amber: Totally.


[00:22:45] Mike: Because I think for a lot of guys listening who are potentially listening to some of this going, ‘Oh, those traits’. That’s it. Right. Oh, well, if I have to be logical about it, so I can then kind of switch modes almost, and we might make more sense of these terms and stuff and a bit, but please continue.


[00:23:00] Amber: For sure. Um, this is so fun. And. Looking through that lens of mine. And it took me a while, Mike, because at first I thought, okay, cool. I’ve got to be more of this. But I was still in my head thinking, this is what I need to be. And so I could perform as that. Um, and then I pulled in partners who were also performing as the opposite of what I wanted.


[00:23:22] So I brought in what looked like what I wanted, but when we got underneath wasn’t in their body of it and weren’t really open if the show was there, you know,


[00:23:32] Mike: Ok so, what did it look like? And then what was it in reality? Just in terms of some simple traits. So we can start to get an idea. Because also you, you know, ‘I was hard I wanted to be soft I looked at what do I want on a partner?’ But you didn’t say, I want someone who’s hard.


[00:23:49] Amber: No, I didn’t


[00:23:51] Mike: Right. You said you wanted strength and, go on.


[00:23:54] Amber: Yep. Um, What I wrote was more about. So I specifically wrote this down. I wrote this letter, and so I remember writing, writing it because I actually pulled it out a year later and looked at it.


[00:24:06] And, um, I wrote more about the characteristics of the person being adventurous, fun, spontaneous, leading, um, being able to understand me and feel me except me and all of that, be able to see through all of my, you know, uh, what I knew, where, um, perhaps shells or hardness or masks or those kinds of things.


[00:24:28] Um, so, powerful, directional would make decisions. Um, On purpose valued, their health and wellbeing. Would take initiative, would take control of that. Um, all of that. Yeah.


[00:24:45] Mike: And so then you found someone who presented as that, but the, perhaps wasn’t underneath?


[00:24:49] Amber: They did all of that, ticked all those boxes, but what I didn’t realise at the time, um, because of my awareness, I didn’t realize they needed to have in their heart, embodied, able to be present, hold their own emotions. I didn’t understand that they needed to master the part of myself I needed to also master too. So, I just got this one sided person.


[00:25:13] Mike: Who was somewhat in their masculine, speaking to those traits.


[00:25:17] Amber: 100%. But disconnected perhaps from their feminine. So I thought, ‘Oh, they’ve got to have both!


[00:25:24] Mike: So can we explore that a little bit, right, the- cause I, you know, I speak about this stuff a little bit, but I also come across a lot of men who it’s kind of like, ‘yeah, what do you mean by that?’ Not necessarily disconnected from your feminine, but first of all, the feminine and that seems to then even be disconnected from that. So from a dude who is presenting as the guy that you first perhaps found in relationship, how does he recognise this? What, what is it?


[00:25:47] Amber: I wonder, I’ll give this example and if it doesn’t ask me a different question. But there’s, I remember this time I was on holidays with my partner. Can I talk about sex for a second?


[00:25:55] Mike: You may.


[00:25:56] Amber: Okay. And I remember saying to him, Oh, ‘I can’t feel you’. I didn’t even know, those words were new to me. But I remember, I don’t know how else to describe it.  Everything looked good. We felt great. Like things were going good. Something in me felt unsatisfied though felt not able to fully relax.


[00:26:17] And I would try to describe it to him. I was like, I feel like, and I remember like physically trying to claw his chest, like gently, but I was like, I feel like I can’t get in. Like, there’s an- and he looked at me like blank face, like: I’ve loved you more than I’ve ever loved anyone. I give you more than I’ve ever given anyone. I say, I love you, this and that.


[00:26:36] But I remember describing to him, remember this time, um, we’d smoked half a joint and you were so relaxed and you know, it was really great sex. It’s like, yeah, I was like, that is when I can feel you. And like now in retrospect, I see like all the walls down. Right.


[00:26:51] And I didn’t know what that meant then. I didn’t know he was in his body. I didn’t know his heart was open. Um, and he was out of his head. So perhaps if your woman or your partner has ever said to you, ‘I can’t feel you’ or ‘I’m feeling disconnected or ‘I want to get in further’, like these are signs of that disconnection from your own feminine. Does that, is that a good description?


[00:27:12] Mike: Yeah. And so then, so then disconnected from your own feminine. Disconnected from what exactly?


[00:27:20] Amber: I can’t, I’ll say heart, but we can get- make it tangible.


[00:27:24] Mike: You’ve mentioned emotions a few times.


[00:27:25] Amber: So from being able to feel that – I’m just going to say it and we can break it down for you – feel that your own grounded energy and heart and emotions in your own body, and just stay there like a mountain that is open.


[00:27:46] Mike: So being okay, feeling your feelings. On some level and totally not being in your head perhaps, and trying to make sense of them or control them or stuff them away or analyse them before you’ve actually felt a thing.


[00:28:01] Amber: 100%.


[00:28:02] Mike: Because that’s an uncomfortable place to be. Potentially.


[00:28:06] Amber: Yeah. So being out of your head. Still being able to be directional and logical, make decisions. The reason why I want to say that is because even to my past self, I know she needed to hear, or, you know, sometimes we need to hear ‘it doesn’t mean you have to stop doing what you’re doing, you just need to add an element’. Which is like, you can still be directional, analytical and figure things out. But if you can add your ability to stay and feel your emotions, which begins with body connection and body awareness. You’re nailing it. It’s like a thousand percent more attractive and your woman or your, your, your counterpart in their feminine, if you’re predominant in your masculine will just relax and melt and she won’t even know why, but that’s what will happen.


[00:28:50] Mike: And so, cause I do love this term and I want to explore it and it might not be even much more, but as you said, ‘I can’t feel you’. Right. Cause that is something I’ve heard a lot. Right. When, you know, someone might say ‘My partner said this to me, like, what does that even mean?’ So, ’cause again, I can be that person 100% in my head going ‘Hold on but what do you mean you can’t feel me like I’m right here? What, w w what are the steps there for me? Okay. So what emotions do I have to feel in this moment? You know, like, how do I actually make that switch? So you mentioned something about kind of being in your body.


[00:29:28] Amber: Yep. So the actual steps to that are so much simpler. And the reason that I’m pre-framing, that is because myself at the time, and I know I’m a woman and you’re hearing like your guy taking his advice, but remember, this is the energy that I was in, which you’re probably finding yourself in. So don’t think you don’t- You know, don’t think it’s not relevant.


[00:29:49] If I had, if someone had said to me ‘get your body’, in fact, they did, they’ve asked me, what are you feeling? And I’m like, what do you mean? I feel good. Yeah but what do you feel? And they had their hand on my heart. This healer lady person, you know, I was like, whatever. I’m good. What do you feel? Ah, uh- and I remember maybe I can just start with body sensation.


[00:30:09] Mike: Now I’m feeling pissed off, because you keep asking me that question.


[00:30:11] Amber: Yeah, I’m frustrated. I’m fine. I know what you’re talking about. So I’m going to go straight for it and say the best thing that I have seen support someone to get into their body. It’s actually like something that’s really big, that changes that like brings our attention to our physical body.


[00:30:30] Something like breathwork. Cold bath in the ice, where you have to, um, where your physical body is under like a strain. It could be a workout. And then when you’re in the body, because of whatever you’re doing on the outside, go into that. And you’re like, ah, that’s feeling my body. So have you ever had a cold swim or you’ve been in a hot sweat or you’ve worked out and your heart is pumping, just first pay attention to your body sensations.


[00:30:57] Really easy to do. Everyone can relate to that, but first step. So you might be in the middle of a workout or the end of it. Feel your heart rate, focus on your breath. Can you feel inside your body? My partner just went away for the weekend and he went up into the rainforest and he’s been practising this kind of work for, I don’t know, maybe 18 months or so.


[00:31:16] And he still went away and he came back and he goes, I’ve never felt myself in the way I felt myself. 18 months ago, wouldn’t have even been able to say that sentence. You know.


[00:31:26] Mike: So it’s also a practice?


[00:31:27] Amber: It’s a practice, and it develops and grows. And the reason I wanted to say that is because it’s really great if you just start with going ‘cool, I can actually, um, I’m connecting with my body as a step one’. And what I know is that part of our mind wants an outcome right away: ‘Cool and now what? Now what? Keep doing that until you can, then at one point, be in the middle of a conversation where you’re triggered and then do the same thing.  And then what emotion do I feel?


[00:31:57] Perfect. Example. I don’t want to say like trigger yourself,


[00:32:01] Mike: But well, even if we come back to the example of like, you know, partner says, ‘I can’t feel you right now in this moment’. Right. And maybe let’s put it in the context of sex, which is kind of what you said, but I can’t feel you right now, okay.


[00:32:14]Amber:  For a guy or anyone?


[00:32:16] Mike: Yeah. So what would be the step there? Hold on, wait, I’m going to go in the other room and do some breath work or some pushups, which by the way, if that’s what you need to do, just go and fucking do it. But beyond that, if she’s ‘no stay with me now, I need you to, I need to feel you.’


[00:32:27] Right. And he’s like, ‘I don’t even know what that is. Cause I can’t feel me. So what the fuck am I doing?’ Right. So getting into my body, could there be perhaps a question intellectually that, that brings me into, you know, her- she’s feeling disconnected from me now, how do I then feel? What’s the emotion I feel, you know, is there something that you can come up with right now?


[00:32:47] 100%.


[00:32:48] Amber: Yeah. so, An actual practice would be, I would close your eyes just because there’s so much stimulation, about 80% of the information coming in through our senses comes in through the eyes. So if you can just go in for a sec by closing your eyes. Focus. Just try and find your breath. What’s it doing? Is your belly tense?


[00:33:05] Is your jaw tense? Are your temples tense? Relax all three of those things. Where, um, how much energy is in your feet. So when we’re up in our head, what happens is if we try and feel our feet, we can’t. So just a great indicator. Oh am I grounded? So relax those three areas. Um, uh, belly, jaw, temples, relax, relax, and drop shoulders. Relax belly. Feel the breath. You’re in your body.


[00:33:33] You might not immediately know everything, but you’re immediately in your body. Great, good start. Then what I would say is like, you can ask your partner, ‘Hey, give me a second. I’m going to breathe’. Do it for a minute or two. Then do- like take some deeper breaths that are slow and gentle.


[00:33:51] We want to get your nervous system out of fight or flight. So you’re not defensive guys – right – she’s not personally attacking you. Don’t take it personally. She wants you to, like, penetrate her heart. She wants you inside of her energetically. You must relax. So she relaxes. So once you’ve done that, you could even turn to her and maybe put your hand on her heart.


[00:34:16] Can you feel her breath? Her heartbeat? Is her belly relaxed? Can she relax her pelvic floor and her feet? If you’re not more in your body and connected by then, you know, you will be immediately through that.


[00:34:32] Mike: Very nice. I think we might add that to the show notes. So here’s some actions to go away and do. Yeah.


[00:34:39] Amber: Okay. I mean, I’ve got more, but that’s just a good place to start.


[00:34:42] Mike: So now I want to ask, okay, so then this might speak back to your example, but, um, what if, okay, there’s a dude is listening – he’s like, ‘Fuck. You know, I’ve had some kind of a conversation like this and I’m going to try and do this thing, get into my body, and out of my head a bit. I know I’m in my head and I’m thinking overthinking and ruminating’. What if he brings that to his partner who may not have said those exact words, but something like it; ‘I can’t feel you, you’re emotionally disconnected, unavailable’, but she’s still in that place herself, as you said, when you were back in this earlier time and he’s like, let me just, you know, take a breath for a moment. And she’s like, ‘What?’ She’s asking for something that she isn’t fully able to be in or perceive.


[00:35:23] Amber: Yep.


[00:35:25] Mike: Is that where you were?


[00:35:26] Amber: Yeah, no, for sure. And so there’s multiple different ways. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, it’s good. So I really want to give a real life example so that this is tangible for those listening. So firstly, and I know this from working with humans as well, is that when, when a partner usually brings something like that to us, or she’s brought it to us, even when we go to them, bring it back to her, or our partner, we’re on the defence immediately, even though we’re delivering and trying to serve, and that defence, uh, must go down. So what I want you to understand about what Mike’s saying, when that, that woman is in her masculine, and she’s asking for something that she’s not doing, she’s asking for it because she wants you to lead it. Now there’s this, you know, age-old argument, the masculine goes first or the feminine goes first- I think the feminine goes first. That’s my opinion. I think the masculine can hold the space for that, but the feminine can go first, if you can lead by opening your heart, uh, and getting her into her body and not talking to her logically about what she has to do, you’re winning. So holding as a hug.


[00:36:45] Breathing, hanging out because what I want you to understand is the mechanism that has her in her masculine has been there because it has worked. And she does not want to give that up easily for, to an extent-


[00:37:00] Mike: To do what?


[00:37:00]Amber:  To protect herself from ever having to feel, uh, betrayed, alone, abandoned, uh, heartbroken, humiliated, uh, unworthy, uh, all of these things.


[00:37:13] So she will be hyper independent, protected around her heart and up into her head because of that. And so what you don’t, since you’ve realized, whoa, this is what she wants, even though she’s not doing it. Cool. I’m going to go first. Remember, you’re going to take that back to the old version of yourself then.


[00:37:30] So you’ve got to help her do the same thing. Yeah. And no that on top of that, there’s an extra barrier that is testing your masculine. That she’s going to hold tight. She’s probably going to maybe be a little bit passive, aggressive. She may feel a little bit defensive. Um, and the best thing that you can do is-


[00:37:49] Mike: So something that is, you know, kind of almost a pushback?


[00:37:52] Amber: There’ll be a pushback. Likely. So. And I’m just kind of giving this context because if it’s not there: awesome. But know, that, that’s a really normal response. When someone at first is feeling that they might even consider letting their guard down, that that will just automatic- it’s like an extra layer you got to get through guys.


[00:38:15] And so bring it to them, firstly, not in the bedroom. Don’t have the conversation in the bedroom. Secondly, do it in a way where you are talking about something you want to do together, something that you have worked on because you noticed, she said this. So this is the action that you have taken because you listened to her: magic words.


[00:38:37] This is the action I took, because I heard you say, because you felt this way. I want to know what I can do to help you feel more of me. Maybe we can look at, um, how we can both get into our body, how we can both feel each other. Cause I would love that too.


[00:38:56] Mike: And so when you’re saying this, right, because we’re talking about a somewhat specific example, but I also think we both perhaps think this is also quite a common example, uh, a female or an individual, because it doesn’t really matter who the person is because anyone has masculine and feminine. It could be two guys, and one new guy who is perhaps, you know, by his nature, more feminine, but he’s developed these tactics too out of self preservation and, you know, as you said, so he can’t be betrayed, et cetera – in their masculine, but it sounds like not so, uh, effectively in their masculine, right. As you said, because there’s this protection, almost, and then she’s wanting him to be – so she/her/the feminine – is wanting him to be in his masculine, but an effective masculine. So she doesn’t necessarily recognise what that is in herself.


[00:39:54] Yep. As you said, right? I was hard, but I wanted someone who was strong. So there was obviously a recognition there. But then for him, there’s being strong and coming into his body and his heart.


[00:40:06] Amber: Has to hold space. So coming into your body and your heart. So yes, all of that. And.


[00:40:12] Mike: So is that him doing both modes?


[00:40:15] Amber: I’m about to yeah, I’m about to describe that. So the masculine, um, let’s just give a little bit of context. So traditionally speaking, the feminine energy within us, or wants to feel it creates. And express never wants to end, wants to always keep going. The masculine within us wants to be empty and for the bottom line and for purpose.


[00:40:42] So you may have heard the term holding space, really easy example to think about masculine and feminine as a house. The masculine is the blueprint. It’s the intelligence that builds the house, the blueprint on the paper or the idea let’s even say, go that far back. The idea in the, um, you know, the develop the, the, um, engineer, not the engineering, the structure would have it, you know, that person who drew the picture.


[00:41:13] Mike: The architect.


[00:41:13] Amber: The architect.


[00:41:15] Mike: But also the Genesis of this thing happening.


[00:41:17] Amber: Yes. So it’s the idea and the consciousness of it. And, um, and then the feminine is everything. That is the house. That is the structure. It’s whatever is inside. It’s all the physical thing. So the idea of that house will never change, but we continue to change the current, which is the masculine, the idea of the intelligence of it.


[00:41:40] The blueprint will never change. And it’s this intelligence, it’s the consciousness, it’s the container that has created, what is, you know, that needs to exist in order for the house to be built. The house itself and everything in it, from the tiles to the colours, to the decorations is the feminine. So when we think about having a conversation with that for, for the feminine to feel, be able to express and feel alive and be seen in all of her creative expression or the feminine’s creative expression, it needs a blueprint, it needs a container.


[00:42:15] So when you’re in your heart, And in your body, not in your head, you’re actually being the container. Right. You can be connected to your feelings, but not like in the context of expressing them and feeling them. But conversations with our partners, like this, are a dance of both energies. So that means you need to be connected to your feminine heart – so knowing your feelings, but also having your masculine be able to direct it. So you’re not like, in your head attacking yourself or going into victim or, um, marinading in your emotions, you need to, you know-


[00:42:50] Mike: Or trying to control them and stuff from away, which is essentially still being controlled by them.


[00:42:55] Amber: Exactly still being controlled by them. Yeah. So it’s like, they’re there, I’m open. My heart’s open. I’m in my body. I’m connected to my breath, but I want you to think of yourself as this, like, you know, winged container this open arms for your feminine counterpart/person, not within you to be there, but you’re not in that. You’re not activated by that.


[00:43:16] You’re not playing that expression out. You’re just holding yourself and everything within it because you’re connected to the present moment right here, right now. And nothing else. When that happens, your feminine counterpart may struggle and fight and push back. You stay. You don’t take it personally. You don’t, um, try and solve a problem. You just: ‘I hear you. I hear what you’re saying. How can I support? What do you need right now?’ Now here’s the trouble. And this is my beef with the feminine world and saying, you know, we need masculine men. It’s like the feminine has become entitled and manipulative around that.


[00:44:01] Mike: Mmhmm.


[00:44:02] Amber: And so just like you often do, you say to your women, um, when you’re like, how can I get my man to blah, blah, blah, these guys are they’re in the opposite role now: ‘how can I get my woman to?’ Yeah. She needs to-


[00:44:12] Mike: How can I get her to soften?


[00:44:14] Amber: Soften –


[00:44:15] Mike: Yup. Yup. Yup.


[00:44:16] Amber: Um, just the same. You have to invite it and it needs to be in a, in a different way than what you did, maybe you invited into. This has to be, she has to be so felt, feel very safe. Right? So this isn’t like-


[00:44:31] Mike: Because you’ve used a word a few times: relax. Right. So what I’m getting there is that ‘letting go’. And so it almost the vision that’s come to mind for me is that old school, like trust fall exercise. Right- to relax and let go, I need to know that I’m safe, right. Someone will catch me.


[00:44:47] Amber: Yep. So that feminine counterpart, um, in an ideal world, you’ll relax. You’ll be the masculine you’ll, you know, perhaps hold her, feel her. Say you’ve done this thing- I would love you to soften a little bit more. How can I help you soften?


[00:45:02] Um, you can ask that, but you can, a way to get a woman to soften is just to hold her. You know, tell her she’s safe, tell her, like ask her some questions. Um, and imagine being a mountain. It might not be an ideal situation. She might not even be aware she’s in a masculine. She might get defensive. And that’s ok.


[00:45:22] Mike: Yeah and enter the nuance and challenge in relationships, I suppose. Because then there’s this other thing that pops up for me, which is, you know, like the idea of being a mountain and, and therefore kind of being grounded and being a rock. But when does that become being immovable and stubborn and pigheaded, and potentially not feeling safe around.


[00:45:45] Amber: Totally. So Ryan and – my partner – and I have a joke about that. He’s a mountain on a bird, on a mountain, on a bird, on a mountain, on a bird. It’s just, it’s a joke from a book that Greg- Dr. Greg Braden called The Divine Matrix. And so it’s like being a mountain with a deeply open heart and a river flowing through it.


[00:46:04] Mike: Right.


[00:46:05] Amber: Right. So, and, and being able to be a bird. So you’ve got a higher perspective. Right. You’ve got this grounded energy. Your heart is open. Like, imagine the lava, your heart is open and moving. And that river, that waterfall is flowing through you. So you still have the ability to move with the flow of the water, but you are continuously being the mountain needs to be there for the river to flow within you, but also the river to flow in your feminine, your feminine counterpart.


[00:46:31] Mike: Right. Okay.


[00:46:33] Amber: Does that, does that make sense to the masculine mind, Mike?


[00:46:36] Mike: Hopefully!  But I’m going to explore and dive in. So then coming back to the word safety, right? And there’s a few things that you said earlier talking about this, but also in relation to yourself, and that was, um, one, you searched for these things in a partner and the, not necessarily the facade of it, but just the emptiness of the one side showed up and what wasn’t there was basically being seen and being heard and being understood.


[00:47:08] Amber: Yep.


[00:47:09] Mike: So I’m getting that those things are quite important to relax, to feel safe. So then would it be right and saying if someone is choosing to be grounded and be a mountain, but there might be this line with it slipping into like you’re being stubborn and not moving when all of a sudden you’re in your head and you’re not, you’ve disconnected from her experience so that she can feel understood?


[00:47:35] Amber: But a mountain is open. Like it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s and I’m sorry, I mentioned with the river flowing through it, it has like a space for things to move through. So that’s the, that’s the significance of your emotions moving? So mountain with a waterfall will never be in its head because otherwise you’d be spurting out, you’d be a volcano, you know?


[00:47:56] So you really want to always imagine yourself as a mountain with a waterfall down the middle, your emotions need to continuously be moving. Your heart needs to be open. Now, something I thought of as you’re speaking is that for the, for the woman to relax into her feminine, she has to trust that your masculine is more mature than hers, right?


[00:48:14] She has to trust that her masculine, that your masculine is not only more mature than hers, that it’s more effective and more efficient than hers. And what that means is she needs to see repetitive examples of you being grounded in your masculine, being able to not let her manipulate attack control, try and control.


[00:48:36] You needs to see you looking after yourself, taking responsibility for your actions. Speaking about your emotions, processing your emotions. And most of all, just being honest and self-aware. That you are where you’re at. You don’t have to be perfect, but at least you have awareness of your own shit. If you’ve got that, she’ll relax.


[00:48:58] But prior to that, her masculine is probably more mature than your wants, and that’s why she’s not relaxing. So work on maturing in your masculine and showing that consistently, she will naturally just relax.


[00:49:09] Mike: So work on, uh, like understanding your shit.


[00:49:13] Amber: Yes.


[00:49:14] Mike: And what I’m getting there is like being in integrity; knowing your values and living those and being a consistent example of it and, in that, also being consistent.


[00:49:24] Amber: Yep.


[00:49:24] Mike: Right. So then there’s this trust, because you spoke to trust. Right? And so what I want to ask is, so cool- I can do that. Right. That’s stuff. I can do that stuff I can control and be, and, and potentially facilitate some trust. But then surely there’s another part of that equation, which is the trust that she chooses.


[00:49:46] So I’m going to, I’m going to


[00:49:47] Amber: You’re not in control of. Is that what you’re saying?


[00:49:48] Mike: Yeah, so I’m going to showcase some things and at some point she can either choose to trust or not. Yeah. So how does that work there? The guy listening, going, ‘okay I’m doing those things, but then she’s still not softening and relaxing and so on’. So what happens next?


[00:50:02] Amber: You have a conversation. You have a conversation. You have a really beautiful heart open conversation where you’re like, ‘Hey, I’m trying all these things. I want to do this with you and for you, this is what I’m experiencing’. Speak it.


[00:50:19] You can’t control your counterpart. Um, because she really essentially has to do the same on the other side. She has to, and you can’t, you can only ask for that, lead that and be in that energy. But what, um, what tends to happen is, and I think this happens a lot on socials and it’s not represented or spoken about well, is that people think that the feminine is just this wild, crazy thing you have to put up with.


[00:50:51] It is not. If she is, um, being disrespectful to you verbally, if she is. Closing off and withdrawing love emotionally. If she is, um, engaging in either the victim or the interrogator towards you, these are all the emotionally abusive narcissistic part of the feminine, and it is your, or what we really crave, even though might not tell you, that is for you to not give in to that, is for you to say ‘no’ to that.


[00:51:19] Perhaps take yourself out of the situation and walk away. It’s the same as where I would tell a woman to do on the other side. You have to put up your boundary. Like couple of weeks ago-


[00:51:29] Mike: And can that look like safety on the other side? I don’t feel safe with you right now. I’m going to walk away.


[00:51:33] Amber: And totally, yeah, this like, yeah, ‘that doesn’t feel good for me’. Like, I don’t want, can you, you can ask first, please lower your voice. Like my partner super triggered by childhood stuff. You can’t yell. One day. He was in a triggered state. Um, which happens like once every six months.


[00:51:52] Because one day I was coaching him, I asked permission cause he asked me, he’s like, can I have some help with this? I was like, yeah, sure, no worries. And so I coached him and then he asked for a hug and I said, I’m sorry, I can’t hug you right now because I’m actually coaching you. I mean, you’re in a vulnerable therapeutic situation – I can’t. And he went ‘Pwuchhh’ and like, just so triggered. And he looked at me, he’s like, ‘Oh my God, I’m so triggered right now. I have to go and have a shower because my ego hates you’.


[00:52:19] And I went to and I went, Oh my God, I’m so sorry. And I went to lean in and then he, you know, and this, this immediate thing was broken in the- he just went ‘I just need a minute and I need you to just sit back’. And I just went ‘Okay’. And I just sat on the couch and waited. You know, and he spoke that and just said, I need this right now.


[00:52:35] Cool. No worries. And what I know about a feminine that is scared of abandonment, she will often keep going and going and going and going and you have to walk away and say what you need.


[00:52:47] Mike: So when you say w a feminine-


[00:52:49] Amber: And try and put a timeframe if you can; I need 10. I need an hour. I’m not going to leave you.


[00:52:55] Mike: And honour that time frame


[00:52:56] Amber: Yeah. I’m not gonna leave you. I just need this; 15 minutes. 20 minutes. One hour. And stick to it.


[00:53:04] Mike: Yeah. Be dependable.


[00:53:05] Amber: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, dependable.


[00:53:06] Mike: Yeah. Make sure that you don’t perhaps, uh, weaken one of the legs of your, you know, whatever, whatever creates your safety. So then, um, a feminine who might be afraid of abandonment will keep coming –


[00:53:23] Amber: Keep going.


[00:53:23] Mike: What is that? Is that, is that the test, is that the test and the maturity level that it’s capable of? Or is that trying to subconsciously prove a belief: that I’ll leave and then what I think about myself is correct?


[00:53:39] Amber: It’s a little bit of all of what you sai. It’s the maturity level of the test. It’s manipulative. I say it and I’m like, Oh, it’s so mean to say that. It’s not always manipulative. A lot of the time that test is  -I’m just feeling into my body, give me a second –


[00:54:00] it is a test, but it’s this- okay, the push away is a test for you to test if you’re going to leave. But the trying to penetrate to say, ‘I need you to this and to get that’, oh gosh, it’s a lack of ability for them to emotionally regulate. And, um,


[00:54:29] Mike: It feel like, there’s a, uh, describing as like almost the way that perhaps a lot of like really unhealthy masculine has played out for a long time in terms of power over people. It sounds like you’re talking about like getting power over someone’s heart. Does that make sense?


[00:54:43] Amber: Yeah. You want, yeah. So what, so I’m seeing this scene in my head playing of  this guy, of this push-pull. The guy being like, ‘Oh, you know, I need you to stop. It’s kind of too much’. And she was like, ‘I need you to hold me. I need you to validate me. I need to just be here’ and then going, ‘Hey, I need this space’. And it just going and going and going. And so it’s this, um, it’s both, both are- both in their toxic or both in the immature, in that moment.


[00:55:14] Mike: Hmm.


[00:55:15] Amber: So, yeah.


[00:55:16] Mike: So if there’s a test almost in a really literal sense, ‘why don’t you just leave?’ And then the rational masculine hears it and goes, ‘okay, then she wants to be around’, but actually the test is ‘will you stay even when the going gets tough?’


[00:55:29] Amber: Exactly. And will you stay and also call me out. If I’m hurting you? Because really I’m hurting myself. Yeah. It’s the same with the feminine. If she’s like crazy up in her head, it’s like, if she’s hurting yourself, she wants you to step in and say, cut that. I’m just going to give you a hug right now. You need to chill out.


[00:55:46] Maybe none of those words.


[00:55:47] Mike: Yeah. I think, I think that’s a nice little example because even in there, when I heard, you know, call her out. Let’s be clear. You’re not talking about ‘this is bullshit’. And, you know, cause an attack is not going to feel safe.


[00:56:02] Amber: Not a judgement, not an attack.


[00:56:02] Mike: Right. So then let’s explore that word safety. What does not safety look like? You know? Cause you spoke about the partner and like, Oh, there’s this dude, but then shit, he didn’t have the heart. So what does it actually look like in a practical sense? If the feminine, if a female doesn’t feel safe with their partner, what does, what can that look like in terms of his words, his actions, how he shows up?


[00:56:25] Amber: He’s dismissing her emotions, minimising the experience. So maybe an example of that, of like, ‘Oh, I was just doing this’. ‘Oh, I didn’t mean it that way.’ ‘Oh, you took it the wrong way.’ ‘ Oh can you get over it?’ ‘Come on, it’s just this. Don’t be the victim. This is your fault. That’s your stuff.’ All of those things are dismissing, minimising, not validating, not listening, not hearing, not seeing. That’s and she won’t feel safe in it.


[00:56:52] Mike: Does that also look like – as soon as I started speaking there, it felt like I was doing it – ‘what you’re saying is incorrect’. Like you’re saying something about me and I know I didn’t do this. Right. Like, I don’t want to be made out to be wrong.


[00:57:05] So I’m going to. Jump in and try and-


[00:57:08] Amber: Defend it.


[00:57:09] Mike: Yeah.


[00:57:09] Amber: And justify my actions. So it might also look like her saying, ‘Hey’ – and cause she might not have the right language yet to say, ‘I feel this way’. She might say ‘you made me feel like this when I did that’. The immature masculine, especially very intelligent ones will say, I don’t make you feel anything.


[00:57:27] Or you only feel this way because whereas if you can just feel underneath what she’s feeling. Which is perhaps you just need your presence, which is almost always what they need. Um, or just a reminder: you’re not going anywhere. She’s safe. You’re loved. She’s loved. That’s it? That’s about all you need to do. Albeit, like, it seems too simple to be true. Trust me, it works.


[00:57:48] Mike: And maybe also, like, at some point, like you said, not in the bedroom, and not in the midst of a conversation like this, but like, what do you need to see in hear for me to feel safe?


[00:57:56] Amber: Totally.


[00:57:56] Mike: And then you’ve got those tools in your back pocket, right?


[00:57:58] Amber: There you go. And so it’s like, yeah, it will look like you dismissing, minimising, but defending, getting defensive. Like getting defensive is like, oh God, going down that route as hell.


[00:58:08] It’s helped, especially if she’s in a masculine, cause you’re just intellect each other.


[00:58:13] Mike: Right. And then what about outside of, you know, like conversation and interactions like that? So, you know, for example, when you spoke about this person that came into your world and he looks like he had the traits, but he didn’t. So just outside of your interactions, when you witness how he showed up in the world, what could you tell that gave you the sense of, ‘I can’t be safe with this guy because he doesn’t ‘XYZ’  or he does ‘ABC’?


[00:58:41] So one thing that comes to mind for me is overcommitting and under-promising. Oh, sorry. Overcommitting and under-delivering.


[00:58:49] Amber: Under-delivering. Yeah, a hundred percent. That’s a massive one. But another one was, um, I remember, cause I’m someone who is renowned to be quite grounded, calm as, you know, come as a cucumber, got my shit together. Um, and doesn’t like get upset very often, you know, it’s, it’s but if I do get upset, I get upset. So I’m just going to give you one example and it’s a big one.


[00:59:11] Um, but it might, it’s a, it’s a good obvious one. My mum died. And I was crying. It happened when we were both travelling together. And he said to me, I suppose we have to cut our holiday short for the funeral. And I remember thinking, ‘Oh my God’. Um, yeah, if that’s okay. And I’m like, Oh my God, looking back now. I’m like, Oh my God, you poor thing, Amber.


[00:59:34] Um, and then he was really upset and annoyed that we had to cut the holiday short. And I was crying and crying and crying for like maybe, I don’t know, two hours. And he said to me, empowered women don’t cry. And I thought, ‘Oh fuck, what am I in’? And I, I knew, I knew in the moment.


[00:59:57] Mike: Right. So, okay, what did you know? He was dismissing what you were- trying to make you wrong, essentially.


[01:00:04] Amber: Trying to make me wrong, but I just knew he could never, ever, ever support me when I needed it.


[01:00:09] Mike: So you need to be held and that might be physically, literally held, but also-


[01:00:14] Amber: -emotionally.


[01:00:14]Mike:  – What you’re experiencing is okay. And I can support you in however you need. Versus my fucking holiday is over.


[01:00:22] Amber: And you need to stop crying, right. Because in that, and this is a great learning for me. In that relationship, I barely showed much need of anything. I didn’t need a lot, um, at that point out of habit. And not in a healthy way.


[01:00:38] Mike: Because I don’t need anyone. I’m independent.


[01:00:41] Exactly.


[01:00:42] Amber: And these weren’t conversations in my head. In my head, I’m like, ‘Oh my God, I love it when this is-‘ like, I wasn’t going around in my head thinking ‘I didn’t need anyone. I really didn’t. Um, I really didn’t need anyone because I had everything together, but it was exhausting.


[01:00:55] Mike: Mm. And would you say that’s a common, uh, mode perhaps for women who are, you know, gone to that kind of protective mechanism version of their masculine.


[01:01:04] Amber: Yep.


[01:01:04] Mike: It’s hard to have needs, to receive any help or support, which of course most dudes in their masculine are like, I just want look after you. Maybe not that guy.


[01:01:15] Amber: Yeah. Yeah. I remember one guy a couple of years ago, went on a couple of dates, and he said to me ‘Amber, I just feel like you don’t need me’. And I remember looking at him straight in the eyes going, ‘yeah, I don’t’.


[01:01:29] Mike: But did you want him?


[01:01:31] Amber: Uh, I did.


[01:01:32] Mike: Yeah, but I think there’s the difference, right? I don’t need my wife, but I want her.


[01:01:38] Amber: Totally.


[01:01:38] Mike: But I can also recognise this. Because I remember when Nards and I were first kinda dating and stuff, you know, and she was very strong and independent and, you know, similar to you in the growing up and all those, not the same stories with the same results.


[01:01:51] And I remember, I don’t know what it was, but maybe something happened and you know, in my head, I’m like, have all this praise and like, you know, like wow admiration. And then something occurred where maybe she voiced it, either way, the end result was, you know, wanting to know that she was appreciated and admired and so on.


[01:02:18] And I was like, but you’re so independent and strong and all that. Like you don’t. I, I can tell you don’t need any of that, was the decision I had made. And she was like, ‘okay, well, I realise that’s perhaps what I betray, but no, of course I want to be appreciated and admired and knowing when, you know, you’re proud of me, et cetera, et cetera.’


[01:02:39] And I was like, ohhh. So she’s acting this way, based on all this other stuff, but either way, if I’m feeling that for her at least get to express it.


[01:02:48] Amber: Yeah, totally. And one thing that came to mind when you were saying that was, when I was shown that on the outside, I could feel the men who were connected to their hearts – and back then, I didn’t know what it was, but now I can be like, Oh, in their divine masculine in the- and you know, I can just list them off all of them. And my partner at that time, couldn’t even touch his divine masculine, let alone use divine feminine. Like it was really actioning from-


[01:03:19] Mike: So, what does it mean when you say divine masculine?


[01:03:21] Amber: Let’s just say mature. Oh, gosh, how much context should we get? So there’s-


[01:03:28] Mike: Just like, okay, let’s try and simplify it as much as we can. Some simple traits. What does that look like? Mature masculine?


[01:03:37] Amber: Can lead and respect their own boundaries. Has boundaries around many things. Has self-control has self direction, self leadership; can lead. Um, either consciously knows they’re being led or leading. It’s like it’s conscious choice.


[01:03:56] Whereas the immature, or the less matured or perhaps wounded masculine, um, we’ll probably overwork and not respect their own boundaries at all. And they would just go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Because it’s all about outcome. It’s all about being validated. It’s all about, um, getting the end result, like uncontrollably, like insatiable amounts of validation required.


[01:04:18] Mike: So next thing, next thing. Achieve a result. Next thing. Achieve a result. Next thing. And my worth is attached to this.


[01:04:24] Amber: 100%.


[01:04:26] Mike: Is that the guy that’s getting defensive and so on as well.


[01:04:29] yeah.


[01:04:30] Amber: Yep. And it may not mean that oh, if you’re go go go and getting defensive, because you could be underperforming, you know, and you could be under-functioning and not doing any of those and actually in your, um, little boy in your, you know, less mature masculine; in shame and hiding and still getting defensive.


[01:04:51] Yeah. Does that make sense?


[01:04:53] Mike: Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things, cause we can’t unfortunately, talk here all day because we took a little while to get the microphone going today. One of the things I think we’re getting is that this is it’s a big topic, but it can be simplified. And so hopefully for those guys listening, and any woman, cause I know they definitely are. Um, if the stuff was resonating, maybe there’s some exploration.


[01:05:22] Amber: Yeah. And I know it’s not a direct answer. Like cool, this is what you do, ABCD because you’re playing with the feminine. So there is no, and that’s probably the thing that’s like. But what do we do? It’s like, you actually have to, you actually just have to consistently be, guys.


[01:05:38] That is what you do. You be more, and the feminine will relax and then have the conversations lovingly – unconditionally lovingly – in the safest way possible. You being more will allow her to just surrender, drop, relax, and feel safe. So much less than doing in fact. Lead.


[01:05:56] Mike: Yeah. So be strong, be in integrity. Be present.


[01:06:00] Amber: Yeah. Don’t just act it, because the action- we can sniff that shit a mile away, you know? Oh my God.


[01:06:08] Mike: But also I think what I’m getting, because what you said, one of the things you said earlier is it might not be really conscious either, but it’s in there somewhere, right? Yeah. The deep sniffing.


[01:06:17] Amber: Ha, the deep sniffing. More being of all of these things we’re doing. So I guess in the end of all of this, do all that you can as a man for yourself, not just for her, that’s really important for you. It’s going to make your life amazing.


[01:06:30] Mike: Because we’re talking about the integration, I suppose, of the feminine as well, i.e. being able to understand, sit with, be with your emotions and creative and playful, and those other things you said.


[01:06:41] Amber: A hundred percent, all of that. And then practice, uh, empty out kind of meditations or breath, work time alone, more than you probably think that you need. Um, Work on your body, your mind, and your heart and work on all of those things for you. And when she sees you consistently doing that, she will naturally relax and also be more open to conversation because what is happening is the thing that she needs you most to take responsibility, and you’re doing that in your whole life. Therefore, naturally this feminine will just begin to dance inside of her.


[01:07:16] Mike: And so, you know, here’s has a guy again, conscious or unconscious. Here’s a guy that knows what he’s about, looks after himself, and can, ‘I can sense that he can probably depend on himself therefore I can depend on him’.


[01:07:31] Amber: Yeah. Okay. And if you’re thinking at all, ‘Oh, I’m all of these things. Look at me’. And even fucking 10% of what you’re “being” is performance, it’s not working. It will not work. You cannot perform this because I want to say that because there’s so many men who are like, ‘Oh, well, I’m in my divine masculine and it’s a fucking, it’s a show and it’s revolting to the feminine. I can tell you that much.


[01:07:55] You will attract in this show of the feminine if you do that. You must be humble in your being. That’s key.


[01:08:05] Mike: I like it. I think this is a beautiful spot for us to wrap. Oh man. There’s so much we could go into, I mean, we’ve, on some level kind of covered what you do, but not really.


[01:08:15] So Amber please, cause I will make sure, you know, you’ve, you’ve mentioned some different things with the breath work and meditation, so I’ll make sure that in the show notes – for those listening – we’ll get a bunch of stuff that, you know, you can find from what Amber has to offer, because she has some beautiful stuff in the world.


[01:08:29] Amber: I’ll put two recordings in; one for feelings and body and one for breath.


[01:08:32] Mike: Beautiful. Yeah. Um, but otherwise, what are you creating in the world and where can people find you?


[01:08:38] Amber: Okay, sure. Best place is probably to go to Instagram because it leads to everywhere else. At least right now, or my website, which is @amber_hawken is Instagram, or website, amberhawken.com.


[01:08:59] I have retreats that are all, um, female, so if there- and I predominantly work with women who have that hardened masculine. So if you’re a woman is looking to deepen that and you’ve heard this and you’re like, ‘Whoa, my wife, or my partner, or my sister or someone – that might be something that’s called Alchemy. December – I have Sovereign Space events that are local on the Gold Coast, um, and their breathwork and heart-opening hapi. And then, um, I have an online program, but it’s just yeah, go to my socials and you’ll see it all.


[01:09:29] Mike: Beautiful.


[01:09:29] Amber: Thank you.


[01:09:30] Mike: Before we go. And this is kind of revisiting something, but I want to ask – so then there’s the dude who’s like, ‘fuck, my misses needs to listen to Amber’. Right? ‘My partner could benefit from attending one of Amber’s retreats’. How does he approach that? Beyond: ‘having a fucking conversation, mate?’ Is there a, not an angle, but you know, like, in order to facilitate her receiving that support.


[01:09:56] Amber: Yeah.


[01:09:57] Mike: Is there a way to do that?


[01:10:01] Amber: I’m assuming you’ve maybe had a conversation if not have it, and then use that as a, as a, um, springboard to, ‘Hey, we’ve spoken about this. Um, I’m working on this stuff. I would love us to go about this together. This might be something on your end that would like support what, what our goals are.’


[01:10:19] If not, have the conversation about what you would like to desire together and be like, this is what I’m doing, um- and just say to her, like you can, over-talk like fumble a little bit with this one because it can be new: ‘Hey, we spoke about this. You might find this super interesting, like have a squizz. I listened to this chick on, like these guys podcasts. Sounds like you’d resonate with it. She’s got some stuff you might want to check out.’ Leave it with her. Women will tend to eat that up. We’ll tend to just grab it and go. Um, usually more often than not. So you don’t have to do too much fishing for us. We love it.


[01:10:54] Mike: Beautiful. But also that might look like afterwards, you know, like leaving some space. Yeah. If she is in a space where she’s like, she takes it a bit personally, perhaps like, what is he, what is he? Maybe we haven’t had the first conversation, like you said.


[01:11:06] Amber: Yeah, you need a conversation first to set some goals about, and she needs to know what your actions and your integrity are and your beingness, and then bring it in a sense that ‘what I’d love if you’re interested in is like looking to these bits so we can work on this and strengthen this together’.


[01:11:20] So bringing it in about us and the strengthening, not you having to fix something that’s broken.


[01:11:26] Mike: Bingo. I think that’s us. Amber Hawken, thank you so much for coming on the show.


[01:11:29] Amber: Thank you, Mike Campbell,


[01:11:34] Mike: You’ve been listening to the Everyday Legends Podcast. The show dedicated to helping everyday men build legendary relationships; with yourself, with your partners, and in your world. If you have got something from this podcast, please share it with someone that you think could benefit from it, and please visit your home for podcasts – like us, subscribe to us, leave us a review. Your feedback is phenomenal in getting this in front of more eyes and ears.


[01:12:05] Until next time I Mike Campbell and remember to build that legendary integrity.