The Art of Authenticity & Overcoming Laziness

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Mike: I said to my buddy, you know, it’s going, it’s going pretty good. Like none of the women are, are like complaining, like nobody’s whining. And he kind of smiled and looked at me and was like, yeah, man, I think, I think you’re complaining the most out of anybody. So I, which I think is hilarious.

 

[00:00:25] You’re listening to the Everyday Legends Podcast. The show that is dedicated on helping everyday men build legendary relationships; with yourself, your partner and your world. I’m your host, Mike Campbell and the aim of this podcast is simple: to help you navigate life with more clarity, more confidence, and purpose-driven action.

 

[00:00:47] With plenty of stories, a load of lessons, and some are loving, straight talk. SO let’s get started.

 

[00:00:54] Welcome to another episode of the Everyday Legends Podcast. Super excited today to have my guest, dr. Jeremy Goldberg, a good friend of mine and absolute everyday legend someone who I think we can learn so much from, in terms of how he lives his life. And you’ll hear a lot of that in this city episode today.

 

[00:01:20] Uh, but also learn a lot from, because he’s such an intelligent switched on and phenomenal dude who knows so much about human behaviour and understanding your shit, figuring shit out and ultimately behaviour change. He’s a doctor. He is a, basically a doctor in behavioural change, but beyond that, he is a ferocious neither give upper, a collector of silver linings – as he says in this episode. I love the way he describes himself. And perhaps my favorite is love bomb making kindness pirate.

 

[00:01:59] And so to give you his, perhaps more formal, bio: Jeremy is making kindness cool and the world better than it was yesterday. He has worked for government and universities for over a decade is an expert and human behavior – expert – I’ve just got to get that in there. And spent five years studying how our brains influence our actions and wrote a PhD thesis about it. He is a ferocious optimist who desperately wants you to shine your light bright. He coaches private clients, leads retreats, gives talks, podcasts, workshops, courses, all the goodness, including a course that he has right now called: ‘Do Hard Shit’.

 

[00:02:47] And for me, that kind of speaks to this dude who, as he says he does hard shit. He knows his life is easier when he does hard shit, because by default he’s a lazy dude. Uh, and whilst that might sound like, I don’t know, a twisted way to go about things, for me, it speaks to her genuine and authentic and himself, Jeremy is.

 

[00:03:13] There is some really cool stuff in here that we’re going to learn about behaviour change, but also we’re going to look at some stuff around men and, through his own personal experience of learning and evolving, how we can often sit in a place of codependency – which is to say in our relationships, we can often sit in a place where we try and fix other people’s feelings, take other people’s feelings away, we make them responsible for our own feelings. And, you know, as Jer gives in some of his examples, learning to sit in his own discomfort so people can process their own stuff and support them in a way that is supportive to them. Not in a way that just removes our own discomfort and our own feelings or someone else’s feelings

 

[00:03:57] We talk a bit about the climate, but not much because more so, even though that’s a huge passion of his, we’re talking about behaviour change because that’s where his studies led him to. If we’re screwing up the planet, how do we actually change people’s behaviours? Pamphlets, and information doesn’t do it. We need to facilitate and encourage the changing of beliefs and therefore the changing of behaviours.

 

[00:04:22] There’s some beautiful gems in this is it always ends with a conversation with Jeremy or Jer as you may hear me refer to him. I look forward to you listening to this episode. As always, if this lands with you, if you enjoy it, please share it with someone, let me know that you’re listening to it and what you’re taking from it. Reach out to me on social media tag me, let me know that you’re listening and the parts that you’re enjoying.

 

[00:04:51] And as always, if you’re not yet, make sure you click subscribe or follow where you get your podcasts. And my ask of you, share this with someone and please visit Apple podcasts and leave a review and a rating. It lets me know what you think of it, of course, which is amazing feedback, and it helps get it in front of then more people’s ears and eyes. With that said, let’s start the show.

 

[00:05:19] Dr. Jeremy Goldberg. Welcome to the Everyday Legends Podcast, brother.

 

[00:05:25] Jeremy: I’m so excited that you started a podcast, at long last, and very stoked to be here, man. Thank you.

 

[00:05:32] Mike: I remember we had a conversation a little while ago. You, you, I interviewed you, we had a conversation for one of my coaching programs and we recorded it and you were like, ‘Hey, by the way, This is a podcast. Just start a podcast. What you just did as a podcast episode.’ I’m like, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah I will. And here we are. Thank you. That little push in the back some time, I listened.

 

[00:05:52] Jeremy: I, I appreciate it. And I also got a push in the back when I started my podcast. I don’t know if you know this, but our, our mutual buddy Traver Boehm. Um, I referred him a coaching client and he mailed me a microphone like as a thank you. And, he’s like ‘start your fucking podcast’. And the microphone sat on my desk for like maybe three weeks and I just stared at it and I was scared and overwhelmed and didn’t know what to do. So I think it’s important, yeah, we all need a nudge now and again.

 

[00:06:26] Mike: Oh, beautiful. Yeah. I think we can, we can explore that, um, shortly, but before we do that, I want to do the, who the hell is this guy on my podcast? Cause you know, I know, a chunk of my audience will know you. Some might not at all. So here’s what I want to hit you with Jer: who is Dr. Jeremy Goldberg?

 

[00:06:49] Jeremy: It’s deep. Do you want like the professional version?

 

[00:06:52] Mike: I want you to go wherever that answer speaks to you.

 

[00:06:57] Jeremy: So, uh, thank you. Thank you, Michael Campbell for having me. Um it’s pleasure to be here. Um, yeah, I am a, I am a recovering scientist, turned writer, speaker, coach ranter, podcaster author. Um, I’m a ferocious, never giver upper. I’m a passionate collector of silver linings. I, um, I’m an Anti-quitting word wizard, is what’s on my business card. I basically am like trying to start a kindness revolution in my spare time. I’m trying to make compassion cool and empathy popular. I, um, I do that by writing primarily.

 

[00:07:42] So, um, I have a book and a podcast. I have an Instagram account and I’m just trying to make the world better than yesterday. And the way that I do that is by integrating my scientific background. So I spent many years working up in Townsville on the Great Barrier Reef doing environmental management. And I did a PhD about human behaviour and behaviour change and why we do the things we do.

 

[00:08:08] And so I used that as kind of a basis for my coaching and my work to try to present that stuff in a way that doesn’t like fill people’s brains with sawdust and boredom, uh, like is how I learned it. So I kind of use profanity and I, I use analogy and I tell stories and I try to have some fun, but I basically am just trying to share the insights and the experiences that I’ve learned. Um, so that others don’t have to learn it the hard way, like I did.

 

[00:08:42] Mike: Ah, okay. Um, yeah, fuck sawdust. So, okay. Some beautiful things in there. And one of the things that I want to ask is, okay, so there’s, you know, kind of all those beautiful things you’re doing now and coming off that kind of background of science, in fact, the first thing you said was a recovering scientist, so that, you know, Collector of silver linings, the ferocious never giver upperer- did I say that right? Has it kind of always been that way for you?

 

[00:09:15] Jeremy: I, I don’t think so. I think it’s been somewhat cultivated through various life experiences over the years. Like, like, I don’t recall as a teenager being the guy in the group, it was like, we can do it boys. Like, come on, let’s go. Belief in yourself. Like that was not necessarily me.

 

[00:09:39] Mike: Now?

 

[00:09:40] Jeremy: Yeah. Like now I think it, it probably is me to some extent-

 

[00:09:45] Mike: with some profanity and a story in there.

 

[00:09:47] Jeremy: Like at a deeper level it’s me, although last year I took, uh, eight women on a 200 kilometre walk in Spain. With one of my best closest friends, right? As part of a walking retreat that I did. And we’re like on day three or four or whatever. And I said to my buddy, ‘You know, it’s going, it’s going pretty good. Like none of the women are, are like complaining, like nobody’s whining’ and he kind of smiled and looked at me and he’s like, ‘yeah, man. I think, I think you’re complaining the most out of anybody.’

 

[00:10:20] So I, which I think is hilarious. So I share that of, yeah I have a definitely part of me that doesn’t enjoy suffering. Doesn’t like doing hard stuff, but then there’s like a deeper, perhaps more wise component that knows that I’m capable of doing those things. And that it’s good for me and all that shit.

 

[00:10:44] So I think it’s been cultivated through the years of like, it, it just makes more logical sense for me to choose optimism instead of choosing pessimism.

 

[00:10:56] Mike: Right. Very nice. So there’s like a scientific kind of assessment of that in some degree.

 

[00:11:04] Jeremy: Yeah. It’s like we, we all get to choose. Right. So, so I’ve done, I’ve done the whole science thing. And the reason I say I’m like a recovering scientist is because a lot of my work that I do now is probably more categorically correct under an artist. So writing, public speaking, I do like some spoken word poetry stuff. That’s more creative; feelings, intuitive. Whereas the scientific side was more rational, analytical, so up in my brain a lot. And now I’ve been trying to get like into my heart and my body to be creative. So yeah. Yeah. That’s been the journey I suppose, over the last several years, primarily is, um, is uncovering what I really desire and then shifting my identity in a big way to acknowledge that and to step into that space, which is hard and weird and it’s like uncomfortable.

 

[00:12:08] Mike: Well, I can assume that at some point there was some form of an identity shift from PhD. Student – PhD recipient, even though, you know, you are a doctor, right. And that’s still part of who you are, no doubt. But then through this other version of yourself, did that feel obvious to you?

 

[00:12:32] Jeremy: It, looking back, it’s very obvious. It’s kind of like chapters in a book, is the way that I look at it, of like, Oh, I had that five-year chapter where I was a research scientist and doing a PhD. And I lived at that place and I worked for the government and like I had the cubicle in cyro like CSIRO, the big scientific group in Australia, and like the swipe card. And I wore the collared shirts. Like that was distinctly a chapter. And then there was a chapter that followed that in which, um, I spent four months kind of living in a rusted van, driving around America, just filling my cup back up because I was completely exhausted and burnt out. And then the chapter that followed, which is the one I’m still in is the kind of solo entrepreneurial – you’re going to be a life coach and a writer full time, you’re going to work on the internet, and somehow figure out a way to make money by being yourself and teaching people how to live better, even though you don’t necessarily feel like you’ve got it sorted.

 

[00:13:48] Um, so that’s like the space I’m in now. And I think that as those chapters progress, we can all relate to that. Like we, we all used to be students or sons, daughters, then maybe we got our first partner and we’re a boyfriend, a girlfriend, or now you’re a dad. So I know that you recognise how powerful these chapters can enter your life and your space. And, um, and yeah, so it’s been kind of a, an evolution over the years of.

 

[00:14:17] Acknowledging the resistance that I have for those transitions and then embracing them and owning them and then kind of deciding to go all in, so to speak and you can be like, all right, game on. Let’s go. I’m in

 

[00:14:35] Mike: beautiful. So then w w you know, there’s this big five-year chapter where. You know, the climate was, I suppose, the, the, the thing, but the context around it was behavioural change and learning.

 

[00:14:52] How do we change people’s behaviours in regards to the climate? Yes.

 

[00:14:58] Jeremy: Yeah, that’s a, an easy way to say it. Yeah.

 

[00:15:01] Mike: I’ve read your thesis.

 

[00:15:03] Jeremy: Um, yeah, no, nobody’s read my thesis. I think it was like six people that have read my thesis. Um, I was working on the Great Barrier Reef because I’m very passionate about the planet. Like I really like being alive. I really love the world. Um, I, I like to hike. I scuba dive. I snowboard, I like being outdoors. I’m, I’m awestruck by the magic of the universe. And I get really pissed off that humans are fucking everything up, for lack of a more polite phrase. And I hope that I can use profanity in this conversation, but that’s, what’s happening. We’re fucking everything up. And, um, so my thesis was like, how do, how can we save the Great Barrier Reef? And, how can we change the social cultural individual decisions related to the reef? Because like the fish are cool The fish are fine. If we just like leave them alone and like, let them be, the planet is fine.

 

[00:16:05] The problem is that humans are making a lot of poor decisions when it comes to the longterm care of our world. And so I was interested in that I’ve been working in that space for many years. And what usually happens is you give people pamphlets, or you tell them facts and, and then you just kind of have this intuitive, rational idea that, Oh, now that they know better than we’ll do better.

 

[00:16:27] Mike: Yeah. And if I give him the information, then. Hey. Yeah, that’d be something different.

 

[00:16:31] Jeremy: Yeah. It’s like, Oh, if you just go to therapy, then your marriage will be better. So that’s why every man is in therapy in Australia, right? It’s like, no, that’s not how it works. So there’s a gap. There’s a knowledge-behaviour gap.

 

[00:16:46] And I was intrigued by that gap. I was intrigued by what the science suggested, what research showed as being effective ways to intervene with individuals. And so I’d read a bunch of like psychology, sociology, marketing communication, try to figure that out. At the same time, I was like doing my own research in my own personal life, getting into spirituality, personal development, self-help all that kind of stuff.

 

[00:17:16] Mike: Very nice. So then what I’m interested to explore in that is, cause you clearly, um, you’ve learned a lot about humans and human behaviour. And at the same time, as you said, you were exploring some things for yourself. Do you think that through that process, you started to learn a lot more about yourself and about, you know, your own behaviours, and what will, what will change them in a very simple level?

 

[00:17:44] Jeremy: Yeah, a hundred percent. It’s like, it’s like when you read a really good book and you have that moment where you’re like, you read a sentence or maybe you listen to a podcast, fingers crossed it’s this podcast, but you like have this epiphany of like, Oh shit, I’ve never thought of it that way, or, Oh my gosh, that’s totally how I’ve been living my life. And those are the results I’m getting. And this is a new idea that feels internally like, like a hell yes. And so I’m going to try that. And so there was a lot of that for me, as a, as a student, as a PhD student, the first four to six months, essentially you are tasked with just reading and it was like, just read. Like, get the background information on the topics that you want to study.

 

[00:18:31] Like learn enough as a foundation that you can then ask some interesting probing questions that contribute to that knowledge base. So I was just reading my face off for like months and months of like chasing things down rabbit holes. Like for a while, I was interested in happiness. And so I was reading a lot about the literature of happiness and wellbeing.

 

[00:18:54] So, so yeah, man definitely learned a lot about my own problems, my own, my own ways of doing and thinking as a consequence of, of learning for sure.

 

[00:19:08] Mike: So would you say then in that process and maybe beyond that, but I’m interested to, to kind of come to this big Genesis of like behaviour change, I suppose. Did you start to see perhaps anything, any events, any, I don’t know, aspects of your own life or upbringing that you made kind of a bit of a realisation like, ‘Oh shit, that’s, that’s been playing a big part on how I, you know, these behaviours, how I show up in the world here, the beliefs that I have. They need to change. How do I do that? Oh now I’m armed with, you know, some of the literature at the very least, um, to do that.

 

[00:19:42] Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. So have you ever heard of this word codependency, Mike?

 

[00:19:47] Mike: I have.

 

[00:19:48] Jeremy: You’re familiar with that or, uh, or the like Mister Nice Guy paradigm.

 

[00:19:54] Mike: Very much very familiar with a lot of my listeners too.

 

[00:19:57] Jeremy: Yeah. So, so this idea of putting other people’s feelings over yourself, of prioritising other people of, of being the helper or the yes, man. The, like I’ve got to fix it. Um, that definitely for me was, was a thing. And I’m still, you know, feel like co-dependence has its claws in parts of me still. Um, it shows up at the time to time,

 

[00:20:22] Mike: How?

 

[00:20:24] Jeremy: Just like feelings or actions that are kind of re- reacting to a situation or an emotional expression. Um, and then I pause for a moment, or I walk away for an hour or a day and I’m like, hang on, like what’s going on? Right. So, so I think there’s the personal development aspect in which we are all somehow screwed up from childhood. As a, as a fact, like our parents have screwed us up; with loving kindness and the most wholehearted intention to be perfect.

 

[00:21:04] Like we’ve got some lingering stuff. Like ‘screwed up’ is maybe a bit too harsh. We’ve got some things that we can improve upon.

 

[00:21:12] Mike: Yeah, maybe the result, some of those frustrating things that we experience and keep seeing in our lives that is perhaps the result of, you know, our formative years; we were, we were formed, so to speak.

 

[00:21:23] Jeremy: Exactly. Right. So, so a co-dependence example, um, if hypothetically, your parents divorced when you were six and your mom became an alcoholic, uh, and you were kind of the man of the house as a six year old, I learned, Oh, sorry. Hypothetically, this person learned, uh, to, to not like, like to grow up too quick.

 

[00:21:48] So for me it was like, mm, like mom’s, mom’s feeling sad. I need to fix it. Like, cause the man of the house does, I have no idea as a six year old or an eight year old, what was going on? Yeah. I just knew that I felt this, this urge or this burden to, um, to help, to take care of. Right. There’s like-

 

[00:22:10] Mike: And kind of take away the pain.

 

[00:22:12] Jeremy: Exactly right. Yeah. And so a lot of the things that we do as adults that are unhealthy served us in a great, profound way as kids. Like they gave us attention, we received love, we got connection from doing those things. And that’s great back then, but as adults in a different circumstance with different humans, some of those things are no longer healthy, those things are now unhealthy. Right. And so-

 

[00:22:44] Mike: So when you say before you jump in, ah go on, sorry. I want to jump in. So would you say then, in that example, this hypothetical person, the benefit at that time was, you know, like a, a calmer household? Like, you know, for an obvious benefit or, you know, cause as you said, it serves a purpose at the time – Taking away your mother’s pain taking away that discomfort of you seeing it, or like, it was a better situation because I did that, but then it lead to places that, that wasn’t beneficial.

 

[00:23:16] Jeremy: Yeah. So, so in the moment it would be like, mom, stop crying. Um, you know, si- my sister stopped yelling. Um, things were calmer. There was, yeah. There was a superficial peace, right? Yeah. Like it, um, it helped in that, in that moment. Right. But so perhaps a negative thing of that as an adult who was navigating relationship with women. I don’t know if you’re familiar with women – they’re, they’re different than men in beautiful, powerful ways. But so, because as a kid I had been sort of taught or I had learned that when a woman is upset, it’s a good thing to stop that. Like fix that. That tears are bad. Uh, that sadness is to be avoided. It’s like an imperfection, right?

 

[00:24:17] And so, uh, in the women that I have dated that’s not necessarily helpful or appreciated or healthy, right. This idea that emotions are bad, that tears indicate weakness that, um, if somebody is hurting that they can’t take care of themselves like that, I need to step in and fix it. Right. And perhaps that if somebody is unwell, if somebody that I care about is, is crying that like, I also have to be unwell and I also have to be sad and cry, but I can’t just be me living in loving my life at this time –

 

[00:24:57] Mike: If I’m killing it. I had to kind of bring myself down to where they are, right. Otherwise, there’s that fear that I’m having a good time, or something right?

 

[00:25:03] Jeremy: Yeah, it’s like, I can’t be happy if you’re sad. That’s just, that’s just not how it goes.

 

[00:25:08] That’s not okay. Right. So the risk of that of course, is that anytime somebody that I care about was sad or angry or emotional then I take that on, even though it’s not my, it’s not my shit. So, so like, one thing I’ve written about is in any relationship there’s, there’s my shit and then there’s your shit, and then there’s the relationship shit. There’s like our shit. And so what I was doing for a long time in relationship was taking their shit and making it my shit and then taking our shit and making it my shit. And then I had my own shit and it was like this fertile soil of just lots of shit. Right. And so I think the work that I’ve done through the years and I’m still doing is like unpacking all of that, trying to figure out why I do those things and then putting up the boundaries and learning new skill sets so that I can be like, hang on. Like, that’s not mine, you’re crying right now, but like, that’s okay. Like I can hand, I can handle this. I can hold space.

 

[00:26:16] Um, and so that’s the personal development side. And then from the research scientific stuff, I kind of unpacked. Like, what do you actually do about it? Like, how do you start habits? How do you start rituals? How do you maintain momentum? Like why do we get easily influenced by people? What do we do about it? So, so they kind of synergize in a way they kind of go together.

 

[00:26:45] Mike: Um, So I’m hearing a lot of stuff that I feel will land and make sense to a lot of people. RIght, like, ‘Oh shit, maybe I do that’. And something that I want to ask you is, you know, you said like, if, for example, someone and maybe a woman was having a shitty experience and you, ‘I want to take that away’. Right. Because there might be this simple recognition of, because I don’t want you to feel that, but do you think on another level, there’s also like, it makes me uncomfortable. And so I want to take it away from me as well?

 

[00:27:16] Jeremy: A hundred percent.

 

[00:27:16] Mike: Yeah., and then did that flip if someone was potentially normal, neutral, or having a pleasant experience or in a good mood and you weren’t, did you feel the need to have them help you sort that out or at least, or I need to not be experiencing this because otherwise I’m going to maybe change their experience.

 

[00:27:42] Jeremy: Yeah. Like even worse than that, I would say like, if I was feeling shitty and, and they were happy, like I would get jealous or angry at them and like, subconsciously try to bring them down by being like passive-aggressive or like, you know, being sarcastic and, but like biting, you know, like, yeah. Well, it must be nice, go have fun at your party. Like that kind of shit. Because I have, overall what was going on was, I had not reached a level of emotional maturity or emotional intelligence, let’s call it, in which I was okay being not okay. Right. It’s like, I hadn’t fully danced with sadness and all of those other emotional experiences that we as dudes, especially try to avoid.

 

[00:28:39] Right. Um, who’s listening right now? Like, who’s your main, is it mostly dudes?

 

[00:28:46] Mike: Yeah it’s mostly dudes.

 

[00:28:48] Jeremy: Handsome dudes though. I bet. I bet a lot of handsome dudes listening. If you’re listening right now, you sound handsome. Right.

 

[00:28:57] Anyway. Yeah. Well, we’re obviously, you know, and humble. Very humble.

 

[00:29:03] Mike: Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, and, but we potentially avoid, and you know, part of the whole idea of understanding the behaviours is why do we avoid it? Right. And, you know, I think there’s a, potentially many aspects to it. One simple one is, well, we’ve learnt that it’s not a good thing to have emotions maybe, but certainly to feel sadness and, you know, not have your shit together and not just be killing life.

 

[00:29:29] Right. And so anything that kind of flies in the face of that I have to avoid or stuff away or control maybe.

 

[00:29:38] Jeremy: Yeah. So we, We have a bunch of stories about the world that form the foundation of our reality. Right? So if, if I’m interacting with you and you’re really sad and you’re crying, depending on my background, on my past, I will have a story around what that means.

 

[00:30:06] Right? So. That will then dictate how I respond. If I have a codependent story and an upbringing like I described, like, ‘Oh my God, like, Mike’s crying. Like I’ve got to fix this.’ Like, ‘what’s the matter Mike? Like, what can I do to help you?’ Like, or if I have another lens, I might be like, ‘Oh, men don’t cry. Like, Oh, men that cry are such pussies. You know, like, man up Mike, like, what’s wrong with you? You’re weak.’ And I’ll be like, and I’ll say that to you. And I’ll try to mock you. Right. Um, but really what’s going on is I’m in front of you and you have water coming out of your eyeballs and you’re feeling a certain way. And like, that’s it, like, it just is. Like, it just is what’s happening. And so in that is-ness is a neutral kind of experience. Right. And then I, as an individual, get to interpret that and decide what it means to me. And based on that, meaning I then get to decide how I want to respond, how I want to react, like, what do I want to do? How do I want to feel even. Like if tears make me super uncomfortable and they really trigger me and I can’t stand seeing other people cry, then like I’m going to maybe run away or I’m going to push you away subconsciously by being an asshole or I’m going to, you know, turn my head away. I don’t know. All kinds of stuff.

 

[00:31:35] Mike: Yeah. Well maybe like really try and make it stop and fix it as you said, right. And then, do you also think that, um, it could be, you’re going to try and decide, you know, as you said, you’re going to potentially give meaning to it, but also try and insert meaning for me. Okay, so this is a bad thing for Mike too, right? So I need to maybe take it away for him because he might be really not enjoying this. Cause it looks like it he’s got water coming out of his face, but maybe my experience is ‘Fuck, I needed this cry.’

 

[00:32:08] Jeremy: Right. Like, God, I’m loving this cry. Like my girlfriend is so good at crying.

 

[00:32:12] She’s like cries all the time and she’s just like, um, well, what you’re talking about is projection, right? So what we do as humans is I see you having an experience and I put myself in that experience. And I decided, man, if I was, if I had water coming out of my eyes, I would feel this. I would feel that I would want that I would need that.

 

[00:32:35] So that must be what Mike wants and needs right now. So I’m going to try to give him that thing. Right. Versus if you go back to that is-ness idea, which I think is a word surely, and it’s just like, I don’t know what my needs, I don’t know what Mike feels. I don’t know what Mike wants. Right. And so anything that I attempt to do without that knowledge is just a guess and guessing in relationship is not a high-value proposition, Let’s call it. Right?

 

[00:33:11] And so. Would I could try a different tact, which would be, ‘Hey man, how can I support you right now?’ Or, ‘Hey man, like, what do you need?’ Uh, this is especially, if you’re listening and you are in a relationship with a woman or you want to be in a relationship with a woman in the future, like, this is shit that I wish we would’ve learned in high school. Right. This statement of like, or a question of like, what do you like, do you need me to just listen right now? Do you want me to try to, are you in the phase where you’re ready to brainstorm some solutions? Do I need to grab a, a cricket bat and like break somebody’s leg?

 

[00:33:57] Or are you in the humour phase? Like, where are you at? Let me know. Right. And that question in itself, it’s like, how can I best support you? Is a really good question to ask, because it gives you actual reliable d- data, like as a science dork, I love data. It’s like, how are you feeling? Or like, what’s going on right now for you?

 

[00:34:20] Mike: Yeah so, it’s giving you the information that you can then potentially do something with, even though that do something might be like, leave me alone for some time, or just sit the fuck down and let me cry it out or whatever. Right. We’re going to that example, but it could be anything.

 

[00:34:35] Jeremy: Yeah, like, and this was a head fuck for me to learn that sometimes the best thing that you can do is nothing.

 

[00:34:44] So like sometimes, in my experience, if my partner is really emotional and really upset and crying and, you know, has the nose snot all over the place. But, and, and I’ll connect and then she’ll be like, can you just, you know, can you just hold my hand? Can you just be here? Like, I just, I don’t want to be alone right now. Can you just be here with me? Like, and, and also like, can you just not talk, can we, can we just be quiet? Like, what I need right now is like a hug. Can you just, can we just do that? And that, for me, it was really difficult to understand because, that was not something that I’ve ever experienced as a solution.

 

[00:35:30] It was like, what do you mean you want to just sit here and hug? Uh shouldn’t we fix it? Shouldn’t we like stop the tears. Like, do you want to tissue? Like let’s make some moves, and um-

 

[00:35:41] Mike: This looks uncomfortable, let’s get out of that to something more comfortable.

 

[00:35:44] Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah, why are we choosing to be in this uncomfortable place?

 

[00:35:48] Because at that time –

 

[00:35:49] Mike: But uncomfortable for you in that moment is the thing to notice right?

 

[00:35:53] Jeremy: Yeah. And I hadn’t realized that it’s uncomfortable, but it’s also temporary. So like, if I can just sit here in this sadness, in this grief, in this anger and just feel it and let it pass, like that’s the actual way to deal with that in a healthy manner.

 

[00:36:14] It’s like sometimes you just have to sit and breathe and feel some shit and then it gets better. Right. Um, so I think, yeah, it’s wrapped that all up, man. Like ask, ask one to two questions and then make a plan of action based on that. Rather than just immediately reacting and trying to fix and trying to repair or trying to avoid or making a joke or any of these things. Um, I would also add that if that’s you, if, if you do that then awesome. You’ve just had an insight and an epiphany and you have data about yourself now to get curious, like, huh, like why do I do that? Why am I really uncomfortable with sadness or anger?

 

[00:37:06] Mike: Yeah. Or someone else’s feelings that I try and change because I think I’m helping them.

 

[00:37:13] Jeremy: Yep. Yeah. And so, as you suggested earlier, the, the attempt to help them is actually a subtle, subconscious way to help you alleviate your pain and your discomfort from witnessing the tears coming out of their eyeballs. Which is all that’s happening. Right? And so like, when you can get to that space where you can cultivate that kind of like David Deida says, like, ‘Be the mountain’, right?

 

[00:37:40] Just you’re the mountain and the storms are all around you, but you’re, you are stable and you are strong, your present, like other people’s tears just kind of wash off you. You don’t take them on, like when you’re in that space, that’s a profoundly impactful, solid place to be. And I think that for me at least is like something that I’ve been striving to, to move towards over the last several years.

 

[00:38:05] Mike: Very nice. So, um, I know that you said to wrap this all up, but I want to keep digging into it. How would you see? Right, because there’s with anything I’m guessing, especially from, from your, uh, wealth of knowledge. There’s like, I have an approach to something and then some new data and new information. Oh shit, there’s a different way of doing that. Right. And so what I see as like this often a pendulum and/or this desire to be an expert at this new piece of information when I have only just learnt it. Right. And so in that kind of situation – perhaps for some of the gentlemen listening – they might be listening to that and going, ‘Okay, so hold on my partner – for this kind of situation – my partner is crying and having a shitty, having a shitty experience. Normally I would try and fix that and take it away from her thinking I’m doing a good thing. And now you’re saying, no, let her be uncomfortable. And you just do nothing. Maybe ask some questions, but don’t get caught into it. So could that be taken as ‘Don’t give a shit about what they’re experiencing?

 

[00:39:15] Jeremy: Absolutely. And this is why relationships are hard. It’s because there’s a slippery line. Okay. Let me step back. If, if you are in a relationship in which the dynamic is normally that when the female is feeling upset or emotional, that the man, that you, come and save her, like the damsel in distress, right – if that’s what’s happening, then there’s a codependent thing going on there. Right. And so if you, as the male in this example, decide to change that example or attempt to shift that dynamic and your partner is used to you, sort of being the savior, then do you being perceived to step away is a threat to that person because that’s scary for them. And so there, there has to be this like mutual understanding that, uh, that like we are on this journey together. Right. Um, and also like I would encourage the conversation about all of this to happen before the water’s coming out of the eyeballs. Like, the water’s coming out of the eyeballs, it’s too late to then be like, you know, I’ve been thinking about our relationship and I listened to a podcast and this guy sounded somewhat smart.

 

[00:40:43] And, um, I’ve decided that in these situations, I’m just going to ask you what you need. No, cause there’s water coming out of the eyeballs. There’s all kind of-

 

[00:40:52] Mike: You’re in it.

 

[00:40:52] Jeremy: You’re in it, right. So you. So you’ve got to make a plan and have a discussion about your relationship, like when everything’s great. So another example of this is like, how do you fight in a relationship?

 

[00:41:06] And like, I’m laughing internally that I’m talking about the shit, because like, Three or four years ago I was a train wreck. I didn’t know any of this shit. So I’m trying to like practice what I’ve, what I’ve been learning through the years. Right. So, so like, if everybody in relationship has conflict, like there’s disagreement, right?

 

[00:41:27] So you, I would encourage and invite you to discuss how you’re going to deal with that. When everything’s super happy and super good and super connected of like, Hey, like when we have a disagreement, like what are the rules? So to speak. Like, how are we going to deal with that? I mean, like if one of us gets really upset and emotional and angry, like what then?

 

[00:41:54] Like, do we take a pause for 10 minutes? Do we do some pushups? Do we take a cold shower? Do we have a code word that we just stop talking? Like, how do we navigate conflict? Um, so in saying that everything that I said before, about how to deal with an emotional person, with water coming out of their eyeballs, like it’s better to discuss that before the shit hits the fan, right? Yeah.

 

[00:42:23] Mike: Yeah. So you can come into any situation, somewhat more armed. Oh, okay. I have a better idea how to show up now. And also we have kind of discussed this so we can work on it together. Even if the working on it, you know, we just sit and be.

 

[00:42:37] Jeremy: Yeah. And even using that as, as reference of, ‘Hey, remember that conversation we had at the beach, when we talked about arguments and disagreements and what we’re going to do, like, I think this is an example of that. And I think it might be good for us to just, you know, take 10 minutes and, and be a part, have some space or whatever. Like somebody has to be the bigger person somebody’s got to lead. And I think for men, that’s a very solid opportunity to demonstrate that leadership.

 

[00:43:13] Mike: Yeah, and it speaks to trust, like, Oh, okay. he isn’t going to come in and, and, you know, bring some of his shit into this situation. He’s choosing to support us in this situation.

 

[00:43:26] Jeremy: And there’s a respect element there, of like that, I’m not too much for him. Like he’s, he’s got this. Like he can, he can handle all of me and I can trust him to be my whole self, to be my whole crying, bubbly, blubbery mess. And like, he’s not going anywhere. Like, and that builds connection, strengthened relationship. In a weird way, like sex, your sex life will get better. Cause you feel more intimate with your partner, all that good stuff follows. So in my experience, at least. Yeah.

 

[00:44:04] But again, this isn’t my wheelhouse, this relationship dynamic stuff. Uh, I’m not a relationship expert. That’s not my jam. I am only speaking from reading tons of books and listening to tons of podcasts and getting my heart ripped out of my body a few times. Uh, and, uh, yeah-

 

[00:44:24] Mike: And practising it right. And I think that’s the conversation that brought us into this, which was you learnt that you had a lot of codependent behaviours and tendencies, and maybe one of the key aspects there was trying to manage other people’s feelings and emotions. And when you come into any dynamic, be it a romantic relationship or other, and you try and manage someone else’s experience or emotions, either because you feel a need to fix theirs, or because it makes you uncomfortable, that’s not going to work out well.

 

[00:45:00] Jeremy: Correct. Can confirm, have the tee-shirt to prove it, all of it, man, like, and, and I think, yeah, like at some point, at least in my own journey, it was like, wait, I’m, I’m feeling really anxious often. I’m, you know, walking on eggshells. I feel like all the time, uh, I also seem to perpetually upset my partner again and again. And I don’t really understand it, or I don’t really know what to do about it. And, uh, I’ve been drinking a lot and, uh, I kind of daydream about the other relationships, or running away and, uh, you know, maybe that’s not an ideal situation. So like there’s probably more to learn.

 

[00:45:57] Surely somebody in the world is doing it better than I am. Was kind of my scientific analysis of like, surely there’s a personal life that has fucked with this up less than I have. So, yeah, that becomes the journey. And like, from my experience, I’m sure you can relate to it. This is, it’s like when you start to do a lot of these new things, these new behaviours, uh, it feels awkward and uncomfortable and all the fears come up; I”m not doing it right.’ And maybe there’s some guilt and some shame and like, I always joke that it’s like a, a newborn baby giraffe trying to walk and it’s like, that’s, that’s how you learn.

 

[00:46:47] And like, eventually you practice and practice. And then you’re this majestic galloping beast down the Savannah. But like at the beginning, you know, being gentle and being patient and anticipating that you’re going to make mistakes that you’re going to not just get it right the first time that like it’s a process and a practise. Like anything like going to the gym, like you want to build muscles, like you don’t just go to the gym and slap on a bunch of weight on the bench press and then walk out of there ripped with no beer belly. Yeah, I know it’s crazy, right? It’s like you go, you learn. Yeah. Maybe you hire a trainer that teach you how to do some stuff. You develop a routine, you practice, you get better, you get stronger. It’s the same principles with learning how to be a better partner, learning how to be more emotional, more comfortable with emotions, like better at communicating, anger management, conflict management, like all of these things, they’re skills.

 

[00:47:53] Like you can learn how to love better. You can learn how to boyfriend better. You can learn how to husband better. It’s possible.

 

[00:48:03] Mike: Beautiful. And one of the things I think that I picked up in there as well was like, you know, having conversations and communicating about how you communicate. Right, but also, as you said, like asking some simple questions, again, this doesn’t have to be in the realm of a romantic relationship, but ‘I realise in me, there is a desire to try and fix and solve some things. And maybe I can still do that, but there’s a different way of approaching it. Like how can I support you right now? Is, like kind of another way of saying, can I fix anything for you?

 

[00:48:35] Jeremy: 100%

 

[00:48:36] Mike: And you might get answers like, yeah, you can do this. Or what you can do is listen, like you said before, and that is actually a solution. Oh, I can listen. Okay. Is there a particular way I can listen, am I listening out for anything in particular? And you’re actually getting to do the thing, it just looks different to maybe how we’ve done it for so long.

 

[00:48:56] Jeremy: Yeah, totally agree. And then like there’s advanced levels of this shit of like, okay, once you got listening down, once you’ve got like, not running away down, once you’ve got like, I don’t need to fix this immediately down. Then it’s like, okay, connect. Like relate, empathise. Like, ‘God, that sounds so hard.’ Like, ‘Ah, tell me more.’ Like these little sentences- like, I swear, man, I’ve got like maybe 10 sentences in my life that I just use all the time.

 

[00:49:29] It’s like, this is like, ‘God’, or just like, ‘ahhh’, just like a deep sigh. Just, ‘Ahhh, wow. That sucks’. You know? And just like that empathy, um, is-

 

[00:49:44] Mike: Well you’re honouring the other person’s experience even in just saying that right?

 

[00:49:48] Jeremy: Yeah.

 

[00:49:48] Mike: You are heard.

 

[00:49:50] Jeremy: Yes. And I don’t mean that in like a snarky sarcastic, false way. I just mean that in like, I think having, again, like having a plan before all this stuff goes down, that you can rely on.

 

[00:50:04] And so like in the moment I’ll look in my toolbox and I’m like, Oh, now’s the time when I feel like connection is the right choice. And I go in my connection toolbox and I’m like, yeah, like a deep sigh right now. And like, at first, like this is literally how I would do it. Right. It’s like, like, like, yeah, I’m going to try this – algorithm: algorithm in my brain says – ‘deep sigh, try that.’ Like, what was the feedback? Oh, I got a hug, like, okay, good. I’ve learned in the future that in this moment, when this is happening, you know, ‘X’ amount of drops per minute pouring out of the eyeballs, like – a deep is effective. This is just like my robotic scientific possibly on the spectrum brain functioning.

 

[00:50:48] Right. But like, does that go? And um, and eventually what I’ve learned is that. You know, like, like any expert, um, they don’t- like a professional tennis player doesn’t have to necessarily think about the steps to serve a ball. They just like, they just serve the ball. And when you practise this stuff, eventually it’s just like, it becomes more normalised.

 

[00:51:15] You become more fluent in the, in the conversation or the, the subject of emotionally relating to a person, right?

 

[00:51:24] Mike: Yeah. We’ve become more skilled. And I think something that is, you know, I recognise in myself as well, and, and I am guessing for a lot of the people listening is: take away the other in this example, and it’s just a nice little mirror that I get to understand the stuff in myself more.

 

[00:51:44] I’m experiencing this. If I go to my toolbox, what do I have? Maybe for so long, my toolbox has been ‘fuck this off. This is uncomfortable. Run, leave numb, distract.’ That’s, you know, one tool. And as the saying goes, right, if you’ve only got a hammer, then everything in life looks like a nail. And an emotion, you know, sometimes you’ve got to nail it and sometimes you got to caress it right.

 

[00:52:09] Jeremy: A hundred percent. And I feel like, like me in my twenties, to continue this wonderful analogy, right. Is like, I was like trying to build a house – if the relationship is the house – I’m trying to build this house. And I’m hammering nails in with like the backend of a screwdriver. And it’s like, it’s awkward and it’s clumsy and the nails are crooked and it doesn’t work.

 

[00:52:31] And it takes me 20 minutes each nail. And I do that. The house falls over and I do another house. Another relationship, the person leaves before the house is even built. And then like when I’m 30 or something, You know, I, I hire a therapist, which, side note: you should go to therapy. If, if you want a better life therapy’s cool. Therapy’s for strong people and strong couples, so I want to normalize that shit.

 

[00:52:55] But it’s like you go to therapy and the therapist or the coach, or the podcast host is like, ‘Oh, you should get a hammer’. And you’re like, what’s a ha- what, a what, I’ve never, what’s a hammer? And they like teach you and they show you what a hammer is. And then you go and start using it.

 

[00:53:12] And it’s like, Oh, my fucking god! Like why did nobody ever teach me about hammers in high school? Like I’ve wasted so much time trying to build these houses, these other relationships that fell apart and, and everybody else in the world is using hammers. It’s like, it’s that but for, like emotions, communication, like self awareness, acceptance, like all these other skills.

 

[00:53:38] Right. So I think it’s a really good analogy.

 

[00:53:40] Mike: Beautiful. I think it is. I think we can use that. Because then we find that there are other things than nails, right. There’s rivets and the screws and there’s, Oh shit. Okay. Well, let’s, let’s bag that and we’ll keep going with it.

 

[00:53:53] So, okay what I want to ask you now is, you know, I think it’s linking to all of this and I certainly know part of what you do. And I know, um, I suppose we’ve covered it in part here in terms of your approach to life, right? The, the never giver upperer. I think I’m putting too many ers on that, but-

 

[00:54:11] Jeremy: I, like, I think it’s like a Kiwi thing.

 

[00:54:13] Mike: Um, you have a program called ‘Do Hard Shit’ and you know, I know this of you as someone who, somewhat willingly, cause I can’t speak to the amount there, leans into difficult things. Please talk me through this. How has this come to be for you? What’s the Genesis? And how do you apply yourself to do hard things?

 

[00:54:43] Jeremy: I believe that my life is easier when I do more hard shit. So all of the things that we’ve just talked about. Like I’ve been cheated on. I’ve been cheated on again. I had my heartbroken, my relationships weren’t that great. I was broke. Like all kinds of stuff happened. And I avoided feeling all of those things. I resisted asking for help, et cetera, because I perceive those to be really hard and I just didn’t want to do it. And yeah. Eventually kind of came to this realization that: life is hard in general.

 

[00:55:32] Life is filled with unexpected pain and eventually we all die. So that’s hard. Right? And in that, I’ve also accepted that some hard things are better than other. And so I can make better decisions about what is actually a good kind of hard versus a bad kind of hard. So, uh, it could feel really hard to go to therapy with your partner and talk about your relationship. That’s hard. And not going to therapy with your partner and leaving things as they are, will result in unnecessary conflict, bad sex life, perhaps an alcohol addiction, anxiety, et cetera, et cetera. And that stuff also is like really hard. So-

 

[00:56:29] Mike: It’s like a long name hardness.

 

[00:56:32] Jeremy: So it’s like, you get to choose like, like burpees are hard, going to the gym is hard, but like, so is diabetes.

 

[00:56:40] And so is having your fingers amputated because of diabetes, like, that’s also hard. I’ve been told I’ve not done that. But like the point is, is that our life, I believe is like a series of inflections, a series of choices, a bunch of forks in the road. Right. And so the more that I can lean into.,Like choosing better suffering, choosing more productive pain- the like the easier my life gets. Uh, and as a consequence of that, and simply as a lazy dude, like I want an easier life. Like, I want to know how to have an argument with my partner for the least amount of time, uh, in the healthiest way, that results in the best possible outcome. Like that just seems very reasonable to me.

 

[00:57:39] Mike: Yeah. so the lazy option, just ignoring it and avoiding it might seem easy then, but at an easy afterwards.

 

[00:57:48] Jeremy: Yeah. And so I guess the big clarifier would be that I am a huge proponent of short term pain for longterm gain. Let’s call it. So in the moment, in the hour that you’re in therapy, it’s going to be hard. Like when you’re, when I’m doing burpees, I hate my life and I regret my choices, like when I like for real. Uh, and I know, and I remind myself that in the long term and the medium term, this is going to benefit me in some way. This is actually a good decision right now.

 

[00:58:25] Mike: And so, because what I’m really getting in that is intention.

 

[00:58:31] Jeremy: Yeah.

 

[00:58:31] Mike: You are tapping into why am I doing this thing? Right. So this might be a blanket answer and it might not. But do you think then, when you’re doing difficult things, you connect to quite simply, this is good for me or go beyond that to specifically why this is good for me?

 

[00:58:56] Jeremy: I mean, as I shared earlier on my walk, like I often don’t even make that leap. I just whine a lot and complain. And like, if you’re doing burpees next to me, like I’ll probably be grunting and being like, Oh, I hate this. Like ‘Whhaaaa like poor is me’. Um, however, like when it’s, it’s hard until it’s done, is another way that I think about this stuff is like, once it’s done, like we’re good.

 

[00:59:21] Um, and so I think breaking it up into shorter time spans of like, look, I just gotta do 10 more burpees. I got 20 more minutes of this therapy session. I got like, you know, five more emails to send whatever. Um, but as you suggested connecting with the feelings or the sensations of the other side of this difficult thing, are really internally motivating and I think can be fuel to keep you going to inspire you in the same way that remembering or reminding yourself of all the great things that you’ve already done provides evidence, um, of the changes that you’re trying to create.

 

[01:00:04] It’s like you can do this. It’s a foundation. Remember that time that we ran that half marathon. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. How’d you feel like? Oh, I felt like a million bucks. I felt so strong when I walked down the street, I felt so proud because my friends and family were there and, you know, it’s like, okay, like, we’re going to do that again.

 

[01:00:23] But this time we’re going to try to do it in this way.

 

[01:00:28] Mike: So actually having conversations with yourself on some level, right. And bringing clarity to, you know, why am I doing this thing? And how have I seen these things work for me in the past? Yeah, beautiful.

 

[01:00:40] Jeremy: And like doing it for yourself first and foremost. So, um, being internally strong enough to take the wrath or the teasing from friends or family and be like, cause they’re just projecting their own shit onto you as well.

 

[01:00:58] So yeah. Like recognizing that inner spark or that inner knowing it’s like, yeah, I need to, I need to quit drinking or I gotta make some changes. I got to stop smoking or, you know, it’s it’s time. Like I’m gonna, yeah. I’ve been looking at joining Mike’s program for a year now. It’s like, yeah, I should fucking do that.

 

[01:01:18] You know, or buy the book or whatever. End the relationship. Ask the girl out. There’s, there’s countless examples, but we all have that inner knowing. And I think the more that we can honor that, um, the better our lives go.

 

[01:01:32] Mike: Very nice. So choosing to do it for you, as opposed to the risk of how other people might feel or view it or what they might think of you, some potential perhaps judgment.

 

[01:01:43] Jeremy: Yeah, because there is not a person alive who knows what it’s like to be you better than you do. So all of the advice, all of the conversations, all of the insights, like nobody actually knows what it’s like inside of you. And it’s a practice again, to get clear on that, to get still enough to tap into what really is going on inside of you.

 

[01:02:11] And acknowledge it and be like, yeah, like I really want to be a dancer. I really want to write a book. I just I’m supposed to go to Ecuador. I can’t, I just, I’m supposed to go there. Like go and live your fucking life and live your best life because guess what? You’re going to die. And you’re going to regret not doing all that stuff a whole lot more.  And you’re going to regret going to Ecuador and to be a dancer and then moving back and being like, yeah, man, I just made some cool memories. I tried to tried to be a dancer in Ecuador. That was fun. Like, Mike, you were like a rugby player overseas, right?

 

[01:02:50] Mike: I was.

 

[01:02:50] Jeremy: Like, that’s cool. Like you were at the time living your best life, chasing some dreams.

 

[01:02:56] Mike: Yeah. Even though it might not have felt like it in big chunks of time, but it’s also part of the point, right? Yeah.

 

[01:03:03] Jeremy: It got you here now.

 

[01:03:04] Mike: Some of these things we get to learn to trust ourselves. Oh 100% it got me here. Yeah. Okay. So what I’m also getting in this then is this, well, first of all in you, but also, uh, uh, a philosophy I suppose, of doing you. Living authentically, I suppose, might be another way of putting it. Uh, and that takes courage and it might be the hard thing. But I, you know, it is something that I most definitely see in you there’s dude, who is authentic and real and at ease in himself. And I, I also see that’s something that people pick up on because they share it with you on your social media and you don’t shy away from sharing that stuff as well.

 

[01:04:05] So, um, I’m going to just kind of put the spotlight on you for that at the moment. And I’m interested to ask you, like, what is that about? How did, how do you see this kind of like groundedness? How does, how does that like happen for you?

 

[01:04:26] Jeremy: Laziness. Like pure and simple. Like. Laziness. I so, so authenticity to me like living an authentic life and being who you really are to me is like the most logical choice for a lazy person, because I don’t have to remember what mask I wore to that party last week when I talked to that person about that thing. And, Oh, I remember we talked about that thing and I pretended to be hot shit, and now I have to pretend to be a hot shit again. And, uh, Oh God, I really want them to like me. And so I have, ughhhhh – it’s like, it’s just easier. Uh, it’s easier. How do I phrase this? Being yourself is the hardest, easiest thing in the world.

 

[01:05:21] Right. So we all know who we are deep down, but we’ve been sculpted by our past and the stories and all of these things and these desires and the ego and all that shit. And so that’s what is complicated. So, so for me, I think more and more I’m striving to be authentic. I’m striving to use my full voice in a way that feels best for me.

 

[01:05:47] And like, just to clarify, I am certainly still a fuck up in many ways. Like, like you can have my girlfriend on here and we can talk about all the things that I have done wrong, that I am working on that, uh, I said that I wouldn’t do, but then I did it anyway, et cetera. So for me, um, I am 100% a work in progress.

 

[01:06:16] I am, um, like a masterpiece, nonetheless, though. Like I’m, uh, that’s a good line. I might write that down. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but like, like I’m good as I am, uh, right now I’m worthy and deserving of love and success and impact and all those good things. And at the same time, I’m still leaning into my shadows.

 

[01:06:37] I suggested earlier that ah, codependency has its claws in me. Um, yeah, it’s still healing to do. Still find it very difficult to express emotion in front of loved ones. Um, crying for me is not easy. Um, I’m getting better at that. Um, so yeah, I think from, from a zooming out landscape, like authenticity is just an excellent decision, because it’s simple. And with that goal in mind, the path to get there is paved with difficult decisions, difficult conversations, difficult endeavours, you know, doing the work. It’s like, Oh my gosh, I’ve been doing this thing for years, or why do I do that? Oh, shit i, I have this part of me that craves this thing and that results in a lot of pain and unhappiness, like-

 

[01:07:35] Mike: I have to give that up.

 

[01:07:37] Jeremy: Yeah. And that’s the other scary part – we can talk about another time – but, like stepping into the unknown identity of who you really are and how you really want to act is potentially terrifying when you’ve spent years operating in a way that feels comfortable and normal and, and easy.

 

[01:07:59] Mike: Yeah. And yeah, we could definitely rabbit hole into that because there’s something so central to, I think what you’ve just said. Well, actually there’s a few things, um, to credit you, but one thing that’s really landing for me as this, as you see it, I am still worthy of happiness and all these things. And so there’s this like, acceptance of self and who you are. Which I think for a lot of people is a big bridge, but what if other people don’t accept me?

 

[01:08:25] Right? Yeah. So that’s a big thing to deal with, but yeah, the thing that I think as you see it so eloquently, ‘Well, it’s just fucking easier’. And I see this and I hear it from men all the time. And in my program, we talk about like the mask that you’re wearing. And one of the inevitable results when guys really tap into is like, ‘Oh, that’s been exhausting’.

 

[01:08:49] Jeremy: Yeah.

 

[01:08:50] Mike: Right. And so the connection there: Well, yeah, so if you want it not to be so fucking exhausting, just let go of that stuff. But in the middle of there is like a choice. Can I be okay with if other people don’t like this actual version of myself?

 

[01:09:04] Jeremy: Yeah. And I would, I would add to that. Like you and I were friends with a lot of people in the personal development space with big followings and expertise, and everybody has their shit.

 

[01:09:18] Like everybody is figuring it out as they go, like, nobody is perfect. Nobody’s relationship is, is anywhere as good as you think it is on the internet. Like the imperfections and the struggles and the dramas and the pain is actually what unites us. It’s actually what brings us together. And I think that we need to normalize being flawed masterpieces, so to speak. Like we need to normalize like our imperfections. And I think that’s something that you do really well. And that, that the work that you do is so powerful in that way, because we as men, we have this like veneer of like false bravado and like perfection that we feel that we have to maintain.

 

[01:10:07] And like nobody deep down genuinely feels that way, in my experience. So I think the more that we can open up and share what’s going on. Um, the more connected we’ll feel to each other and then consequently, like the easier all of our lives will be. So like, why don’t we try that?

 

[01:10:30] Mike: I’m just letting that land. Just letting that land. Thank you. Philosophy 101 nailed.

 

[01:10:39] Jeremy: Yeah. Right. Let’s do it. Like, like literally, if you were still listening to this podcast, you’ve heard my voice for like 45 minutes or an hour. Like if you’re still listening, there’s a great likelihood that you are resonating and connecting with all of the things that I’ve shared about myself that are vulnerable and open and like imperfect and flawed and weird. Right. And you’re like, eh, I get this dude. I relate to him. Like, I also feel this way. It’s like, yeah. And so does every dude that I know. Like we’re all trying the best we can and we’re all figuring it out and fucking things up and learning. And like we’re all just grown up, kids struggling to like, have a happy life and that’s it.

 

[01:11:27] Mike: It is. And I’ll add to that. You get to be supported in that. And so with that said in all of this said, Jer, I want to wrap this up and I want to thank you immensely for coming on and I want to ask you where can people find you if they do want to be supported with/by you?

 

[01:11:46] Jeremy: Yeah. Um, so I have a, a business called Long Distance Love Bombs. So I’m on Instagram longdistancelovebombs.com. I have a podcast called the Long Distance Love Bombs podcast. Mike Campbell has been on that podcast and a bunch of others you probably recognize. Um, what else? I wrote a book. I’ve got some online courses. I coach people in groups, and one on one.

 

[01:12:12] Um, yeah, I recently am launching a program today, actually, called the ‘Do Hard Shit program’ with a men’s coach named Traver Boehm. Um, I have another online program called ‘Get Shit Done 101’ which talks about habits, rituals, procrastination, and, um, yeah, all those ways. Instagram’s like the main thing that I use to connect with people and share my work.

 

[01:12:37] Um, I wrote a book. I gave a Ted talk, like got a bunch of, got a stuff out there.

 

[01:12:43] Mike: A bunch of phenomenal stuff.

 

[01:12:47] Jeremy: Yeah. Thanks man.

 

[01:12:47] Mike: That is also still a work in progress. Right. That’s the nature of it.

 

[01:12:50] Jeremy: Yeah.

 

[01:12:51] Mike: Jer, thank you so much for coming on the Everyday Legends Podcast. I’ll make sure all those notes and all the things, are where this podcast is so people can find them and find you.

 

[01:13:02] Thank you very much, brother.

 

[01:13:03] Jeremy: Dude. Love you, man. Thank you for having me and thanks for you.

 

[01:13:08] Mike: You’ve been listening to the Everyday Legend Podcast. The show dedicated to helping everyday men build legendary relationships; with yourself, with your partners and in your world. If you have got something from this podcast, please share it with someone that you think could benefit from it.

 

[01:13:26] And please visit your home for podcasts like us, subscribe to us, leave us a review. Your feedback is phenomenal in getting this in front of more eyes and ears. Until next time I Mike Campbell. And remember to build that legendary integrity.